Birth Is Political: What This Moment Is Asking of Us

Introduction and Welcome

Britta: Hello folks, and welcome to Transformed by Birth, a podcast about the rite of passage of pregnancy, birth and new parenthood. I'm your host, Britta Bushnell, author, mythologist, childbirth educator, and an all around deep diver with a side of goofball. I'm so glad you're here. Today's episode explores current events with ice that impact families, mothers and pregnancy. We're also going to dive into white supremacy and racism within the birth community, as well as share strategies for building resilient communities and showing up in solidarity. So grab your comfy beverage of choice or take us along for a walk as we connect and learn from herbalist childbirth educator and founder of Rising Matriarchs, Montserrat Olmos Lozano, Montse,

Lighting the Candle

Britta: before we begin, we start the way we always do by lighting a candle. If you want to join me, please do or just take a breath as I light mine. Today's candle is in honor of immigrant communities living in fear. What's happening in the US right now cannot be separated from birth and postpartum spaces. Birth is political. Birth work is political, parenting is political right now. ICE raids are terrorizing immigrant communities. Families are being separated, pregnant people are being detained. Children Are Watching their parents be taken away. Nurslings are being separated from their mothers. And those of us with citizenship, with white privilege, with platforms, with hearts, we have a choice. Speak up or enable this through our silence. Listener this conversation will ask something of you and of me too. It will ask us to stay present with what's uncomfortable, to examine our own complicity and to consider what solidarity actually looks like beyond performative gestures and depending on your intersection intersecting levels of privilege, it will ask differently of you than of other listeners. What is asked of us, even in listening, will be unequal and unique. I ask you to stay, to listen, to let yourself be changed, and ultimately, to take action. At the end of this episode, we'll share concrete ways to show up in solidarity and resources for taking action. Today's guest, Montse was born and raised in the north of Mexico. At the age of 15, she migrated to the US with her mother, grandmother and aunties. It was in the US that she became a mother, a ceremonial dancer, traditional musician, birth companion and herbalist, she created the first of its kind, online course titled cultural appropriation in roboso work, which explores the decolonial history of this sacred textile and its symbolism of indigenous brilliance and resilience. Monsie believes that birth work. Chose her as a way of continuing her family's tradition of midwifery and traditional medicine. Today, Montse lives back in rural Mexico, where she continues to serve as an herbalist and childbirth educator. She is an active community member in her small town and the founder of rising matriarchs, an online membership and virtual school for indigenous, black and brown people who want to dive deeper into birth, work, herbalism, motherhood and community building. Welcome, Montse, thank you for being here and calling us into this deeper conversation about accountability. I want to start by asking anything in what I've already said that you want to respond to.

Britta: My conversation with Montse ran into some challenges with internet. It was a very windy night for her in Mexico, which interrupted a little bit of the recording. So if you hear things in the background, or the dogs barking or it got a little munched up, understand that that was just we're rolling with it. We do what we can. And I hope you will stay with me and listen to the full conversation, because Montse really shares her wisdom and her her heart and information that we all need to know. I hope you enjoy it.

Montse: Thank you, Britta. Well, I just want to first and foremost say thank you for the invitation to be here in your platform. I think it's truly an honor when people think of me and see me as an important voice to have in their spaces and in their platforms, and I'm always honored to come and bear a good word, a good moment, a deep conversation, you know, whatever it is that may be asked of me.

Montse: And I also just want to, just like you said that the candle for today was in honor of immigrant families. I want to support that prayer because I feel like it is a prayer, and I think it's really beautiful that you always light a candle before the podcast, like in your conversations, because that's also what we do. You know, when we gather in community or in ceremony and we're going to talk about difficult things, or we're going to hold a prayer for any specific reason, the fire is always present. We see fire as one of our oldest ancestors on this earth. So it's a very sacred thing. And just like you have that candle, I also have my altar here at home set up. It's always there, and it's always being fed and taken care of by the whole family. And it's like the center of our home. So yeah, just wanted to share that. Thank you for the invite.

ICE Raids, Immigration Enforcement, and the Legacy of Colonialism

Britta: Thank you. I love that. So let's dive into our conversation. And one I want to start with, what's happening right now. How are current ice actions and immigration policies impacting pregnant people, families and mothers.

Montse: Yes. So a quick disclaimer before I get into that I was a migrant myself, like you just read in my in my bio, and that means that even now, when I'm I've been back home for almost six years now, when I talk about it, I still get emotional sometimes. So if I do, if I, if I, if I shed a tear or, you know, my voice crackles like, just know that it's coming from a place where sometimes, even if you're not in that imminent danger anymore, there's still a lot of healing that we have to do, right?

Britta: Yeah, no, I really appreciate you speaking to that. Yeah. I think that's actually an important thing to speak to, and it brings the rawness and the emotion and the truth really front and center. So thank you for sharing that first and foremost.

Montse: Thank you. Yeah, let's get into it. I think that by now a lot of people, mostly everyone in the US, is aware of, you know, the current political climate down here in Mexico where I live, we are all aware of what is happening. Because at least in the community where I live, almost every single person has family in the US, like people who migrated to the US. So whatever happens over there inevitably impacts a lot of communities down here too in Mexico, economically speaking and politically speaking, but also, just like the overall health of communities and families, right, that are oftentimes being financially supported by the migrants that are in the US, right, the family members that left to the US. So I want to start with just this really good first question that you had about the current ice, you know, rates and kidnappings. And I want to say that very clearly, because the way that it's happening, truly is kidnapping and these policies that are very abusive and very rough and are impacting pregnant people and families and mothers. And since you know this podcast is about birth and about pregnancy and postpartum, I want to focus specifically on the impact that this is having on pregnant people.

Montse: To that question, I want to add that children are also being arrested, right? So this is the whole family structure that is being impacted. And I want to first and foremost say that this this is not the first time that indigenous people and black people have seen these kinds of strategies being carried out right amongst our communities and our circles. We always say that colonialism never ended, slavery never ended. The you know, human trafficking and sex trafficking never ended. And so for us, this is just a continuation of what started more than 500 years ago, right? So for us, it's not it's not a surprise. It's not the first time that we go through through this. And I think that, in a sense, we have also built this sort of like resiliency around it. But I know that for people who might have certain privileges, this might be like, you know, shocking news.

Montse: It's not for us. Really we I really do believe that the very first settlers that came into the continent over 500 years ago and started committing a genocide and you know, raping women and stealing children and all kinds of things. These are just now their descendants doing the same thing, right? It's a new form of slavery. It's a new form of trafficking. It's a new form of colonialism. So I want to just kind of make that very clear,

Montse: and I guess I should also make a quick disclaimer on language, because I know that it's a very heavy thing to talk about, and I like to call things what they are, and I think that we should be honest in the way that we talk about these things. But I also know that, like, you know, maybe some folks of color or indigenous people, black people that might be listening to this might be a little, a little heavy, you know, to listen to, and especially because we already know these things, you know,

Britta: yeah, it won't impact everybody equally,

Montse: yeah. And so it's important, but, but I do think there's, there's real value in sharing and speaking very directly.

Britta: And so I appreciate that you're doing now.

Montse: Yes, thank you, and thank you for holding space for that too, you know, and allowing for that. I also there's another quick clarification that I want to make, which is, along this conversation, I'll use the term whiteness, and I want to sort of explain, you know, how we perceive whiteness, because it's Beyond Skin Color, you know, whiteness, white supremacy, these ideologies can be perpetrated by people who are not always white in their skin. They are precisely that ideologies so a state of mind, a mentality, a way of being in the world, a way of behaving and treating others, a way of perceiving in the world that anyone can have right of any community. And so I think it's important to say that, because oftentimes when we talk about these things and we use these terms, I have encountered a lot of defensiveness right, almost as if it's like a direct attack on specifically people with white skin. But it's not really like that, because nowadays we can see that anyone can really have these ideologies and actually carry them out and cause harm without necessarily being white. So that's another quick clarification I wanted to make. But right now, ice is having a huge impact on migrant communities across the US, and one of the first things that they do, and the reason why they are working. The way they're working right now is that they are destroying the family structure, right? So the way that works is, first, they are targeting all of the men, right? And that's why we hear these like speeches and and discourse on, you know, they are criminals. They are rapists, you know, terrorizing communities. They are gang members. And they're usually referring to like man, the males in our community, as criminals and as rapists. And that's part of the strategy, right, framing our men as as criminals, because if you attack the men first, and you basically remove them from the family structure, from the community you leave the mothers, the women, the children, the elders, exposed and vulnerable. And that's a strategy that's been happening again since early colonial times. It's the same playbook being used over and over again, because it works. They have realized that it works. And so once you frame the men as gang members and you remove them right,

Montse: then you have now the mothers and usually femme people as caretakers, being left alone and chronically stressed out, trying to survive and stay afloat, doing, you know, multiple tasks, trying to care for the children and elders. And so now they are the, the main caretakers of these of this family. And so after they take the men, they come for the women, the mothers, and they come from for the children, right? And this is just the way that this whole, you know, human trafficking operation works. And I call it that because, according to the research that many of us are doing right now and the observations that we are a lot of these people that get locked up in ICE detention centers end up missing. We don't know where they go. Either they completely disappear, and it's really hard to locate them, and it's intentionally done that way, or they stay in these detention centers for a long time to be used for slave work and so and because, you know these these centers are also private, so there's a profit to make for every single inmate, right? And we're talking about huge amounts of people, people that are either coming into the border, trying to cross the border, and waiting for an answer at the border, whether they can come in or not into the country, and Then also the people that are already inside and have been living there. We are talking 1000s and 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of people that are literally being treated as objects, as animals, as or worse than animals, right? And so this is, again, this is not a coincidence. This is not happening just, you know, because they're doing things last minute, or they don't know how to do things, you know, or, you know, they don't have an organized way of doing things. This is intentional, and it's being planned that way every step of the way. So I think that's a really important reminder to give listeners about the current situation, once they do this right, once they are taking entire problems, yeah, what the effect that this has on on communities at large is that communities are being terrorized. So the message that they're putting out is you can be next. And up until a few years ago,

Montse: it was only people who did not have US citizenship that were concerned, that were receiving this message and were concerned. But now we have seen that they're coming after everybody. Whether you have citizenship or not, it doesn't really matter anymore, because you can either get detained or you can get shot and die, and it's become a really like raw reality for everyone in the US as of now, indigenous communities across the US have seen the strategy play over and over again. It's not news to us, but it is news for people that have had these privileges for a long time. Part of the purpose of today's conversation is to speak to to that part of the population right that has US citizenship, that may have white skin, that may have class privilege, and that is just finding out that this is happening, and that may want to take action in some way, and may want to become a part of This movement, right, to wake us up and to become proactive. So right now, no one is really safe. This violence can reach anyone in the country unless you literally, quote, unquote, sell your soul to the devil. Right? And what does that mean, compliance, to be docile and to assimilate into the current system. That's really the message that is getting is being put out. You know, whoever you are, if you challenge the system, you'll experience consequences, right? So, be quiet,

Britta: yeah, exactly.

Montse: Being quiet. Being docile, yes. So that the message is, Be quiet, be docile, be still, be small and and

Britta: Exactly.

Montse: And I think it's not a coincidence that right now, in the in the US administration, we see a lot of women at the forefront, you know, speaking to press, and, you know, taking care of a lot of these important positions, important jobs within the government, right, which I think is really interesting, like the effect that that is having psychologically on the population, because, or we saw very few women involved in politics. You know, with high ranking positions, it was usually the men, and now we see more women. And I think that that's definitely also sending a message to to white women that like, Okay, if you stand with us, if you stand with you know, white men, white supremacy, capitalism, etc, you'll be protected, right? If you're with us, you can be protected. And so I think that it's important also in this conversation, you know, to remind ourselves that white women have also been harmed by white supremacy and have also been harmed by capitalism, and have also been objectified in so many ways, and they're not necessarily safe, but

Montse: in order to have that sense of protection and to sometimes even feel above other communities, they choose the side of the oppressor, right, and they choose the side of staying compliant. And I want to speak to that, because in the birth community, we have a lot of white women that are coming into this work.

Britta: Yes, please, let's, let's talk about that. Yeah, yeah.

Montse: Sometimes when you dehumanize another human being, another person, you also become dehumanized. But by that act, right? And that's like the harm that we don't we're not only doing to another person, we're also doing to ourselves and in this process of colonialism in this continent, in the side of the world, white women have also, have always been a key in the in the in the perpetrating of that colonialism, for many reasons, because they have Supported white men because they have looked for that protection and that sense of safety at the hands of white men, which meant subjugating and, you know, oppressing black people, indigenous people, but at the same time, they've also been on the receiving end of harm. And so I say this because I really want for white women to to show up as allies with us, you know, and to wake up from that spell and realize that they're also being oppressed by the current system and that they also have this obligation and the responsibility to show up.

Britta: absolutely i i love that you're unpacking this for us and speaking to this. And I mean in in having you on this podcast, you asked me to use my platform to to address this and have this conversation. And I you know you mentioned it around the importance of solidarity and not like, like, meaningful solidarity. And I'm, I'm curious, you know? Why? Why do you feel that? I mean, I have lots of my own answers for this, but I really want to hear it from you, which, why is that solidarity so critical right now.

Montse: I think, like I said before, because no one is really safe, anyone and everybody who will rebel, anyone and anybody who will speak up against it. With the recent events of, you know, the files that we've all known were released, and people are looking at them, and we're realizing these atrocities that the powers that be are committing, and have been committing for decades now, I think more and more people will continue to wake up, and more and more people will continue to feel enraged by this. And the beautiful thing about solidarity is that it's something that you don't do alone, and that if you remain isolated and alone while all of this is unraveling, you're a lot more vulnerable, a lot more exposed. It's a lot easier for the system to swallow you if you are alone and isolated than if you are gathered in community, right? And that is probably one of the biggest you know, things that indigenous people can can share with the world, like how we build community, how we organized, how we treat each other, in order to really build that trust and those close bonds and that strength that comes with community.

The Impact on Pregnant People and Families

Britta: I was hoping we could we could go back a little bit and talk specifically about pregnancy, birth and postpartum experiences for immigrant families and what you were talking about, the way that the administration is working to break and cause problems in the cultural fabric and the fabric of the family. And I think I want to hear you kind of illuminate how that is, particularly hitting those who are pregnant and giving birth and in the postpartum, because the fabric of the family is so vital during that era of life. So can you share a little bit more about that in particular.

Montse: yes, physically speaking, the physical the impact that this is having on the physical body is we are seeing increased amounts of miscarriages amongst women and pregnant people that are being detained, miscarriages that are happening in detention after detention, and overall in our communities right now because of that sense of, you know, being at risk, and the chronic stress that you know it's causing young people. So an increase in miscarriages. We're also seeing an increase in adverse birth outcomes. We're seeing more severe pregnancy complications, lack of care, and it's really like the overall weathering of our physical health, right? The physical health of the pregnant person is really breaking down underneath the stress and the abuse and the malnourishment and the mistreatment for babies, we are seeing an increased risk of low birth weight. That's like a 24% higher risk of low birth weight. In babies, we're also seeing more preterm birth. There was actually a study that linked, and it's in the National Institute of Health about linking ice enforcement to 6% to 11 point 10% increase in the chance of preterm birth, right? And I know that these statistics may not sound significant to some people, or may not really make a difference to some people, but to our communities, they are big, and they are having really.

Medical Neglect and Postpartum Care in Detention

Montse: A really, really negative impact that is big when it comes to, you know, pregnant people who are in detention, specifically, what they are experiencing right now is medical neglect. They have poor living conditions, poor nutrition. There's no access to specialists, right to ultrasounds, to medication, to prenatal vitamins, even a lot of them are being shackled and restrained, ankles, hands and waist during transport, and also as they are being attended for medical emergencies and in labor. So I want listeners to just kind of like imagine that for a second right that you are whether it be two months pregnant or nine months pregnant, and you are being shackled literally as you are giving birth to your baby. And then all the physical trauma that is being created during arrest and detention, right, like being handled roughly, having their stomachs being pressed against cars, right, sometimes not even being able to access clean water. And then you know that's that's pregnancy, and then we go into postpartum, like, what happens after you gave birth

Montse: to a baby? While in detention, we are seeing that there are no postpartum checkups for pregnant folks that just gave birth. And this is really important, because it endangers their recovery, and it's life endangering to not have postpartum checkups. A lot of things can go missed. Can get missed if there's nobody really looking at their health and keeping track of their postpartum recovery, we are seeing a neglect of nursing needs. You know, for people that are breastfeeding, chest feeding, there's really no adequate food and water for them, which is really essential when you're nursing a baby, absolutely leading to a decrease in breast milk production. We're also seeing delayed care for newborns, people struggling to get NICU access NICU care for their babies, and struggling to access pediatrician visits as well, this overall weathering of the physical health of the mother baby or parent baby unit, we're seeing this overall decay in their health, really, even things like hypertension and cardiac issues, right? And all of this is coming from that chronic stress, whether it's fearing detention, or being in detention, or having just gotten out of detention?

Britta: Yeah, I want to address that, because a lot of the things that you're speaking about are not just in detention, but a lot of these impacts are happening just by the fear of raids in our communities, exactly in communities that are in threat. So I, I read something recently, and maybe you you can confirm this, but that many immigrant communities are not seeking care because they're afraid to leave their homes, and so they're not getting prenatal care. They're not getting the postpartum care. They're not getting newborn care because they don't want to risk heading out into public. So it's impacting even those who are not in detention but who are still in their community.

Montse: Yes. And again, a reminder to listeners that these consequences are not unintended. They're not coincidences. This is very much done in a deliberate way, in an intentional way. The government is aware. Ice is aware. All instances of government are aware of what is happening, and it's precisely the way that it's planned out to be, because it's part of the process of breaking down people's spirits and breaking down your sovereignty, your autonomy, to the point where you can no longer fight. You feel like you don't have the energy or the willpower to fight back. And it's also, again, setting these folks right, immigrant folks who are in attention as an example to the rest of the population, so that folks don't dare support these people, right? And so what I'm sharing with you right now is coming from recent reports and legal advocacy complaints from 2025 and even early 2026 right? And what lawyers and legal advocates who are, you know, consistently present at these arrests and outside of detention centers and inside detention centers. What they're saying is that this is a systemic pattern right of medical neglect, of abuse, of improper detention of pregnant women. This is despite the fact that in back in 2021 we had policies in place that generally restrict the tension of pregnant individuals. But none of that is being used anymore. All of that is being ignored, basically. So

Montse: laws don't exist right now when it comes and that is really scary, right? And that is very. Very scary. Yeah, that should make everybody scared, because if it's being done to migrant communities right now, it'll be done to other communities at some point. It's kind of like how you know, when Gaza was in the news, people were saying, let's pay attention, because whatever is being done over there at some point will be done over here, right? And soon enough, the tables flipped on Americans, on people in the US, because now we are experiencing that same violence firsthand on US soil. And that's another reason why I think solidarity is so important right now, right? So that we can really protect each other. And when I say each other, I don't speak to just indigenous people or just black people or migrants or people of color, but really anyone who is willing to participate and be in solidarity.

White Supremacy and Racism in the Birth Community

Britta: So before we go into unpacking more about solidarity and what we can do, I'd love it if we could talk a little bit more specifically about white supremacy and racism in the birth community, because there's some I want to utilize your wisdom and expertise around this topic as well, because we see the impacts beyond the migrant communities and the what's happening, you know, there's, there's, what I'm trying to say is, there's a way we kind of do this. It's happening over there. It's not happening right here, in circles, in birth circles, but there's a lot of ways that threads of what we've been talking about are happening within the greater birth community. And I'd love to hear you speak about how that shows us.

Montse: I mean again, whiteness and white supremacy as an ideology can permeate any space really. Oftentimes, I've encountered white women within the birth community who say, like, why are we talking about racism? Why are we talking about politics? This is birth. We should just keep it as pure and beautiful as it is, you know? And I think that that's where,

Britta: yes, I see that all the time.

Montse: I see it all the time. Yes.

Britta: So, I mean, I have my take on that. What? So, what is your take on why we need to be having these conversations?

Montse: First of all, I think that overall, you know, speaking in a general sense, we are living in a very defining moment, like, historically, this is a defining moment. And it doesn't matter whether you are a car mechanic, a teacher, a doula, a midwife, like we are all living in this very special historical defining moment. And if we stay silent, the violence will escalate, and nobody will really be safe. But specifically in the birth community, in the US, there's a really specific history when it comes to midwives and Midwifery, we had the granny midwives, right, which are still amongst communities. We still have black grand midwives who are doing the work. But then we also had this movement of, you know, white midwives and white folks that also did a lot of really good and important things for midwifery. And at the same time, we had certain figures that became quickly idolized and put on a pedestal, and that, you know, didn't necessarily deserve to be there. And now we are finding out. And I'm referring to, you know, one example could be Aina May, I know may gasping, which I know that a lot of white birth workers love to, you know, read her work and quote her, and basically use her, almost as an image of an elder, even for them, like this wise elder, this wise midwife elder. And, you know, I don't want to take away to, you know, to the contributions that she did have for Midwifery, and the amazing things that are in her books as well. But I think that there's also a lot of really questionable things that she did and in conversation with other birth workers, sometimes I've encountered a lot of defensiveness when that when the topic comes up, you know, and one point that we specifically always bring up about by the bay when it comes to like, you know, indigenous birth workers, birth workers of color, is how she took this maneuver from indigenous midwives from Guatemala, brought it over to the United States, and, you know, coined it after herself. Never really gave credit to these midwives. Like, we don't know what their names are. We don't know what community specifically they come from. They never received any kind of compensation or, you know, credit for their work. But now the maneuver is called the Gaskin maneuver, so it it became totally appropriated and renamed or or named a new.

Montse: Go after her, which is definitely problematic, exactly. And I think that, you know, these things happen in the birth community as well. So imagine if you've been living in a fascist country your whole life. It's really hard sometimes to see what's really happening around you. You know, for these small birth circles, oftentimes I've encountered these conversations of, Oh, wow. You know, iname is such a such an idol and such a important person to look up to, and she's a mother of midwifery. And when you say that to indigenous people, to especially indigenous midwives and birth workers in the US, especially people who are Native American, right, who have been on US soil for ever, and are doing birth work that's kind of like, it's such a weird thing to hear, because they're like, Who is that? Like, we don't acknowledge her. We don't recognize her as the mother of midwifery. You know, we have our own midwives in our communities that we look up to and that truly have that respectable trajectory and record, because there's that accountability that happens through community. And I feel like for a good amount of years, nobody was really holding item A accountable for, you know, her wrongdoing, per se. Now we're starting to realize like, oh, wow, okay, we don't actually have to look up to this person as a mother of Midwifery, because in our own communities, in our own lineages and cultures, even back home, we have our own mothers of Midwifery, right? And the history goes a lot deeper than just Aina May, right, especially for midwives. We already had black people doing this work. We already had indigenous midwives doing this work way before Ina and so that's just one example, right? That I want to give on how these conversations show up in the birth community.

Montse: I see a lot of spiritual bypassing happening in birth circles as well. A lot of not believing black

Britta: Oh, boy, do we? Do we ever? Boy, there's a lot of spiritual bypassing. Yes, can we please address that that is such a pet peeve of mine, it makes my skin crawl. So yes, please keep going. Sorry to interrupt, but I had, I had a visceral response because you said that.

Cultural Appropriation, Spiritual Bypassing, and Capitalism's Quick Fix

Montse: I I want to remind folks that everything I'm saying is my personal opinion, but my personal opinion on spiritual bypassing is that because, like we said before, the colonizer also harms himself or herself by humaniting others. A lot of white folks in the world are reckoning with that reality now, are being hit in the face with the fact that they don't have a spiritual system or spiritual structure, that their ancestors have done pretty terrible things, that oftentimes they don't know how to anchor themselves in the world and how to make sense of their world. And so inevitably, they start looking for other spiritual systems, and in that search for comfort, for spirituality, for feeling like they belong to something, for feeling like there's meaning right in the world, oftentimes they they take on these cultural practices in a way that reflect capitalist values, that reflect white supremacist values, because if that's all you know, then that's all you know, right? Sometimes I try to, like have that understanding, you know, as a as an outsider look, you know, looking from the outside in to the way that these things are done, and have that understanding and that compassion, right? And at the same time, I think that it's really important for us as black, indigenous people of color, to set boundaries, to define what those boundaries are, and be firm

Montse: within our boundaries, right? And setting a boundary when it comes to spiritual bypassing is basically saying no, like, you're not going to commodify my culture. You're not going to take this specific practice and, you know, go and make 1000s of dollars with it outside of its original context. And a good example of this is what happens with the revoso What happens with Bangkok belly binding, what happens with closing of the hips, etc, etc, etc. These are specific cultural practices that are taken out of their context and that are monetized and commodified for the benefit of a few, and oftentimes the communities where that knowledge comes from are not really benefiting in any way, right? So really, really culturally appropriating practices without,

Britta: I mean, it kind of goes back to what we were talking about with the example of Aina May and the Gaskin Manu. Over coming from Guatemala, and now you're mentioning it in regard to roboso and bellicon, and that taking these and not having it's like removing it from the ground of and community of its lineage has impacts that are that go on in ways that we may not be

Montse: some people may not be thinking about, yeah, definitely. And I think I kind of failed to explain the part about spiritual bypassing. I have this, this really good story that a friend told me once she lives in a community in Oaxaca, and there was a fire. There was a forest fire that was really big, and a lot of people were affected. And she went to her neighbor, who was a foreigner, a white woman, foreigner, living in the community. And you know, when she goes to her neighbor, she's basically checking in on her, how are you doing? Oh, my God, you know. And she's telling her, like, I'm really concerned, because people have lost their homes, and you know, we need to organize and help the families that have been affected, etc, and this person, the foreigner, you know, their response was basically like,

Montse: don't bring all that negativity to me, because the Earth is suffering right now, and we're all suffering, and we just we don't need to amplify the suffering like we just need to focus on the healing, right?

Britta: Yes, that sounds like some serious bypassing.

Montse: Yes, it's a really good example.

Britta: Some Yes, which, which, there is a little bit of a difference between spiritual bypassing and cultural appropriation. And we got a little muddy in there for a bit. But what you just described is, is that, is that that

Montse: bypassing of the real issue that is here that needs to be dealt with, you can't just think good thoughts and it's going to go away. Yeah, exactly.

Britta: And I think, I think the reason why I also got it tangled up a bit, you'll see a lot of both things happening Hand in Hand in certain spaces within the birth community, yes. And I think there's this yes capitalist, a lot yeah.

Montse: Like capitalism teaches us to want the quick fix, right, to seek the quick fix. The weekend workshop, the three day certification, you know, and so because we are in such a rush to become somebody, to have credentials, to be credible, to be able to make money, to sustain our families, to connect spiritually, to something, we're in such a rush that these things happen at a very quick pace, and oftentimes we don't even like pause to reflect on how we are going about it, you know. And I think that it happens a lot in white spaces like I see, that there is a rush to to get to the healing, a rush to get to the positive part. Well before you get there, you kind of have to go through the muddy waters and the darkness of the situation and be uncomfortable and sit with that, and it's okay, like it's part of life too,

Britta: that is so important. And I love how you just unpacked that and put that together for us, not just the cultural appropriation and the spiritual bypassing, but how those are really rooted in colonialism and a capitalist society that is rooted in white supremacy? I mean that that really just tied it all together, really in a way that I haven't heard before, and I really appreciate that. Yeah, the quick fix, looking for the quick fix, and looking for what can help turn whatever it is I'm feeling or experiencing into something that can make money, that can, you know, do something really fast. And it's a good reminder to slow down, to pause, to be in the muck, to get messy. Yeah, and when it comes to when it comes to actually learning these skills and and practices to take care of pregnant people and postpartum people and babies,

The Apprenticeship Model of Learning

Montse: the way that it happens for us is you either saw it in your family growing up, so this is something that you've been exposed to consistently, and that's how you've learned it, or you live in a community where there's another person that practices this and you want to learn from them, so you're going to their house every day to see them. You're showing up whenever they need you. You're making sure that, you know this elder has food the you know you're concerned for their health. You're helping out with the kids, with the animals, you know, whatever it is that is being required of you, you're showing up and you're basically in. Involving yourself in their life and showing up as a fellow community member before you are even given knowledge or skills or a blessing to go into this work. That's the apprenticeship model, right? And that's what that's how a lot of this knowledge is gets passed down from generation to generation, which is also a lot slower.

Britta: Yes, it's slow.

Montse: It is also like more of of a a tincture over time, rather than a giant glass of water, all in one moment,

Britta: exactly. That's a good example.

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Building Resilient Communities: Learning from Indigenous Models

Britta: It also makes me think, and if I, if I can start to pivot us just a little bit, it makes me think of what is helpful in building community, yes, is having that showing up, that that attending and so as we start to kind of move into the direction of what People can do, like, how can people show up? How, whether it's in, in birth work, if it's in our communities around, what's happening with ice where, what is it that you see being really helpful and supportive for building strong communities and allyship that is not performative.

Montse: So if we agree that, if you've lived in a fascist country your whole life, and that's all you know, it's going to be hard to grasp the concept of being a part of a community, right? If we agree on that, then I feel like that's a starting point that is really important. Because I can give you like, organizations and numbers and things that you know people go to and call, but I feel like where it's really at, where the solidarity really shows up, and where you really build it is learning how to be in community with people. It's like this thing of remembering how to be human in the world, remembering how to come back to your humanity, acknowledging that we all grew up within a system that is designed to isolate us, that benefits from our isolation, and that in many ways, they are always Trying to dehumanize us and chip away at our spirit consistently, whether it's through the movies that we watch, the news that are always out there, all of this content that we are now seeing on social media, the way that institutions work, every single aspect of it is designed to pull us apart instead of bringing us together. And so then we have to get back to basics, like, to the very, very basics, like, Okay, where do I live, who are neighbors, and who is the most vulnerable out of my neighbors, who really needs help right now? And how can I offer something to that person that is within my capacity, right? But how can I make myself available to this person and say, Hey, like, I can bring you food, or I can take out your trash, or, you know, if I know that ice is in a neighborhood, I'll let you know so that you don't come out, or I'll take the kids to school for you. You know, there's infinite ways to support,

Britta: yeah, can I interject for just one second before you keep going? It wasn't that long ago that I wrote a newsletter about in my book, I talk about eight what I call cultural ideals that are kind of built into the overclocking. Culture messaging that is in white supremacy, in capitalism, in patriarchy, like they come down, and one of them that I address is the glorification of independence, that there is this message that kind of filters down on us that says, if you could do this by yourself. You should like the peeling apart of our connective tissue that our biology actually tells us we need each other.

Britta: There's an energy of we need one another, but the message is telling us, no, no, no, no, you should do this by yourself, and I'm hearing you interrupting that message and saying, now we need we need each other. That independence is is part of that structure and that makeup of these systems we're talking about, rather than what it is that that we really deeply need,

Montse: of course, yeah. I mean, it would be that hyper individualism, right, that we talk about sometimes, this hyper individualism that is always telling us that you're a lot more honorable and you should be proud of yourself if you can do most things alone without needing any any help. But the thing about that, the thing about isolation and not not wanting to be in community, is that then the question is, who witnesses you like when you go through important life moments, rites of passage, who is there to witness your transformations? Who is there to witness your highs, your lows, because being witnessed by other people is also helping us create our own sense of ourselves and our own sense of the world. So if we don't have that, that's where you start seeing people who are feeling extremely depressed, who are becoming suicidal, who really find no meaning and no connection to others, like when we hear about, you know, school shootings, when we hear about, you know, all of these people within the current administration, parroting like really hateful things and all that. I always wonder, like, at what moment did you become so lonely and so isolated and so disconnected from the rest of people around you, from the rest of humanity, from the rest of the world, that you really find no meaning in being here, so much that harming another human being does nothing to your soul anymore, or it doesn't impact you the way that it would impact me. For example, you know so many people in American society who are going through that fragmentation of their spirit, right? And it's a fragmentation that it doesn't happen just, you know, you don't do it overnight. You don't do it in one day. It started from the moment that they were born. That's why birth matters so much. That's why the way that we come into the world matters so much, right? Because it starts from the moment that you are born and how the system is treating you and molding you to basically become completely detached from your humanity and be able to inflict harm onto another, or to be the bystander where, like, somebody is getting harmed right next to you, and you can just like, stand there and watch, and you don't feel nothing, and you don't feel any impulse to do anything to defend the person, right? I think we saw a clip recently with the President. Somebody in the room in the Oval Office was like having some kind of, like attack, or something was happening to them, and they like, fainted, and the person was just like, looking at them, like, whatever, you know, and that's, that's a great example of that lack of humanity.

Britta: Yeah. So what do you recommend? I mean, for for action, for Yeah, for disruption, for taking care of self so we can take care of others in our community, like what? Give us some some ideas.

Montse: Let me give you an example of like, my day to day life. I live in a really small rural indigenous community in the south of Puebla with approximately 384 people. So it's very tiny. We all know each other. You find out everything about everyone's life pretty quickly, pretty easily. And we have very specific ways in which we organize ourselves. There are like systems and structures within the community that have been in place since centuries ago, because they work, and it's not perfect. And there are people who sometimes don't want to follow those systems and structures, and they break the rules, and they go against what the community is saying, right? And there are people who also are harming others and abusing others, and because we are a colonized community, after all, right? So we're not perfect. It's not like this romantic place. And I want to use this. Example, because the ways that we organize ourselves in a community like this one can be a really good source of knowledge and inspiration to replicate similar systems in an urban context, right? So that's important to make that difference when you're in the city, when you're in an urban context and you are isolated, and you don't feel like you belong to a community, or you don't have as close contact with your neighbors, you kind of have to change it up and look for other ways, right? And that's why the first thing that I mentioned was becoming aware of where you are, right and looking to your neighbors, looking all around you, and seeing like, Who do I live with? Who do I share this space with? Right? Because there's somebody living above me and below me and next to me, so let me find out who they are, so that I can get involved in their lives in one way or another, right? So for us, for example, in our community, we have assemblies, which is assemblies, general assemblies, where the community gathers, right? And we gather to talk about our, you know, issues and problems that are happening in the community. And under the law, the Mexican Constitution, the assembly has the maximum authority within the community, so that means that whatever decision the Assembly makes is protected by law and gets respected, and that's what is carried out in the community, right? And that's a form of indigenous organization. That's a form of indigenous community building, right? And so I think that

Montse: one thing that I would love to see in urban places is to see people gathered in as an assembly, to see people gather again in spaces where they can talk about the issues that are happening in their community. And it is happening almost in every state. You have assemblies where people come together and they talk about their issues, but it's usually a handful of folks. I think that we need more of those, more spaces where people can gather and meet little neighborhoods, a few blocks, maybe one block, that can create their own assembly, right? And within that space of the assembly, you usually have other structures within it, like, for example, the elders get to speak first. The elders ultimately have the last word on what is going to be said, because we recognize that they have a lot more experience than we do. Children are allowed in those spaces. They're not forbidden from those spaces, right? So that they can also be a part of that process and learn how to do that themselves when they're older. Having this space where people are connecting is actually something very dangerous for the government and for, you know, the systems and the powers that be, because you're precisely interrupting the isolation and the hyper individualism, and you are seeing other people face to face and telling other people, I need you. You need me. Let's help each other. And that's probably one of the most powerful things that people in the city can do break that isolation right now from those spaces where you gather, many things will be born. Many things will be born, because once you start acknowledging the problems and proposing solutions and getting to know your neighbor, you'll realize that, oh, I actually have people in my blog who have skills and who can do things, and I can trade with them because I need their services. And now they're also coming to me because they're looking for a doula, and they, you know, want me to be at their birth. And now we can trade and barter beyond money and show up for each other in meaningful ways. And you know, they're never gonna forget that I was there for their birth. Now I'm that special person in their lives, right? There's, there's a Weaving Tapestry that impacts everybody. When those threads start to connect, if we this

Long-Term Community Building and Imperfect Communities

Montse: is more like long term, proactive, community building right now, something I really want to remind folks is that there's not, there's no community that is perfect. Like, perfect communities don't exist. And this is important, because in the last decade, through social media, we've learned a lot about like, you know, inclusiveness. Like, for example, inclusive language and all this, like social justice concepts. And oftentimes, we have participated in cancel culture as well. When people don't follow those, you know, social justice concepts or don't, don't practice specific things. And I, I'm guilty of that as well. I've participated in that kinds of culture as well. I think that now I see it in a different way. Now I sense it a lot different because precisely of the fact that I live in a community that is not perfect. So I encounter people who have different opinions than mine, who don't practice. You know, social justice concepts the way that I do, who don't use the same inclusive language, who, you know might be homophobic, transphobic, misogynistic, etc, but they are still my community members, and I still have to acknowledge them as such, and I still have to live with them every single day and see them and say, Good morning, good afternoon, good night. And when they go to the assembly, their vote is still just as valuable as mine, and their voice is still just as important as mine. And so that that sometimes is really hard for like the younger generations to really accept of like, oh, wow, this elder just said something, you know, misogynistic. And I'm like, yeah, there are people like that here too, like everywhere else. But regardless of that, they are still my community members. And so I always have to find a way to like I choose to find the beauty in them, the positive aspects of them, and the ways in which I can still connect with them, and even sometimes, the ways in which I can create certain level of trust with them so that I can talk to them about the misogynistic thing that they just said, and maybe they'll let me in, and I'll have a way to, you know, talk to them from a place of connection. And that was a really hard lesson for me. I've always been the social justice warrior. I've always been very strict in some ways, in my mind, you know, sometimes very close minded. And when I came back from the US, I was bringing in all of my, you know, us programming. And when I arrived here, I really had to humble myself and adapt to what was happening in the community and what was being asked of me. And that's another important point on community building. Sometimes the community the assembly, will ask for something of you, very specific that you may not fully agree with, or you may not be fully comfortable with, because you think that the solution should be something else, right, or that people need something else in their lives. But sometimes it's really about having that humility to say, Okay, it's not my my place right now to impose what I think, or to impose what this, what I think the solution should be. If the community is asking me of this and I can give it, I'll give it

Britta: so Monte we are. I mean, I could keep hearing you talk, keep listening to your wisdom, and we are. We are, over time, at this point for today's conversation, perhaps we'll need to circle back and do this again at another time where we can go even deeper into so much of what you have to offer. And so right now, I'd love to have you, I mean, for folks, you and I can't get through everything in one one hour conversation. So people who have had their their curiosity peaked, and who want to learn more about you and or want to support you in your work, where do you want to send folks to learn more about you and ways to support you.

Rising Matriarchs and Resources

Montse: Yes, I'm on Instagram. That's really where I'm most active. That's where you found me. That's where I found you, yeah, that's how I found you. Yeah, that's my handle. I'm also active on a platform called podia, P, O, D, I A podia, which is where I host the rising matrix community. And it's basically a platform where we already have a really big archive of previous workshops on all kinds of topics, from herbalism, birth cycle charting and, you know, herbal abortions, community building, sustainability and traditional ecological knowledge. We have so much in on there, and it's really interesting. Some of those programs are only open to black, Indigenous and People of Color, correct rising matrix, and some of them are open to so rising matrix, the platform, the membership, where you can go and basically access our entire library of content is for bipoc only, but this month's workshop that we are having, which is cultivating strong communities that one I did open it to everybody, and I do that from time to time. I think it's important to have also spaces where anyone and everyone can come so that we can have wider conversations and more nuanced conversations, right? Cultivating strong communities is one cultural appropriation of the rev also is another that is also directed towards white audiences, mostly precisely because of the issues we were talking about. So yeah, on my website,

Montse: right, all the workshops are posted. They're already, you know, pre recorded, and that's just one way that I wanted to continue doing my work in the world, because now I'm more focused on my family, taking care of the land where we live, my baby, etc, but I wanted to continue serving as a childbirth educator, as an herbalist, and so that's why I decided to go online and create all of these courses. And, you know, take advantage of that technology that is available to us. So if folks want to connect, it would be through there.

Britta: Yeah, and to be able to reach more people through your work too. I mean, that's one of the accessibility beauties of online courses is, you're not living close to me, but I can take your course, which is kind of a nice you know, where the world feels like it gets a little smaller and and we'll put those links in the show notes so people can easily find you and ways to support you. Also, I did have a list of specific emergent actions, and also long term and proactive actions that we could include in the show notes.

Montse: I would love to include that in the show notes. So when people are looking for what, what can I What can I do? What's an emergent action that I can do?

Britta: There can be some of things that you've recommended. So as we wrap up the conversation, I like to end with the same question each time, and that's what's one thing you feel passionately about that you want new or expectant parents to see, hear, feel or know during this profound period of their lives.

Closing Reflection: What Do You Want New Parents to Know?

Montse: That is such a big I know it's a big one. How can I answer it in a very brief way? Our babies come with a purpose. They choose us for a reason. They choose us as parents for a reason. For a long time, I thought that I was failing as a mother, and that I wanted to break all these cycles, and I wasn't doing it. And then now, with the birth of my third baby, who was born with congenital heart disease and Down syndrome, it's been such a deep, like spiritual transformation that I've gone through with her with, specifically this third baby, that I've come to realize that our babies choose us for reasons that sometimes we don't even fathom but we're not able to understand. And this is regardless of your you know, spiritual system or your beliefs.

Montse: And I think that the more that we can honor that the more that we can be gentle with ourselves and forgive ourselves for our shortcomings as mothers, and understand their path and their purpose and the reason why they're here. I think that's the best thing that we can do for our kids, right? I don't think it's about having all the material things or, you know, taking them to travel around the world, or doing these grand things for them. I think the real, beautiful impact that we can have in our children's lives is to see them as the spiritual beings that they are, and respect their path and their purpose on this life, while at the same time being gentle on ourselves and lowering the expectations a little bit more, because right now, we're living in a world that is asking so much of us, you know, and it's really keeping us all under chronic stress and with a nervous system on alert all The time, all the time, and I think it's a good moment to really rewire that nervous system. Be gentle in ourselves. Be gentle on our kids, and lower the expectations. Think that would be. That's a reminder for myself,

Britta: that's so beautiful. Yeah,

Montse: that's, that's, that was, that was profound and very necessary. Yeah, that was, that was a good little blessing for all of us.

Britta: I think thank you so much. So thank you Montse for for spending this time with us, for sharing your wisdom, and thank you listeners for sharing this time with us as well. If something shared today impacted supported or moved you, please share this episode with a friend. I produce this podcast myself, and your support makes it possible to show a little love for the podcast in these conversations. Please follow rate and review. If you'd like to continue the conversation, please join us on Instagram at transformed by birth. I look forward to being with you again on the next episode of transformed by birth. Now let's gather what we want to take away from this episode with an inhale and with an exhale. I'll blow out our candle

Britta: until next time bye, friends.