Birthing Beyond the Gender Binary: One Papa’s Pregnancy Story

Introduction and Welcome

Britta: Hello folks, and welcome to transformed by birth, a podcast about the rite of passage through pregnancy, birth and new parenthood. I'm your host. Britta Bushnell, author, mythologist, childbirth educator and an emotional deep diver with a side of goofball. I'm so glad you're here. Today's episode gives us a personal view into the experience of one birthing Papa. Grab a cup of tea or take us along for a walk or a drive and join us as we expand the conversation about birth beyond the gender binary

Britta: before we go there, let's light our candle. If you want to join me, please do so, or just take a special breath as I light mine. Today's candle is to send a little extra energy and light to the trans community who are navigating so much difficulty in today's society.

Challenging the Gender Binary in Birth

Britta: The idea of the gender binary shows up hard and rigidly in the birth world, using terms like birthing parent and birthing person, tends to unleash a slew of folks pounding their fists in the air and chanting, only women give birth. And while a uterus is required to gestate a baby, those with a uterus can exist all along the gender spectrum, depending on your lived experience. You may have only interacted with or known pregnant people who identify as women, which can reinforce the idea that that's those are the only ones who give birth. Perhaps what we need in the world is more exposure to birthing beyond the gender binary. This is one of the reasons I'm so grateful to have today's guest here with us, Herbie Huff is a trans dad, non binary gender adventurer. I love that. By the way, alumni of twin pregnancy, Papa of three, soon to be four children, a Los Angeles native raising his family in LA and an amateur lover of all things gestation and birth, Herbie, thank you so much for being here and sharing some of your journey as a birthing Papa. Welcome.

Herbie: Thank you.

Britta: It's really wonderful to have you. So before we get too deep into the conversation, I want to say that probably like a lot of people listening, I'm very aware that while I'm actively engaged in learning and deepening and expanding my understanding of gender binary and

Britta: gender, sorry, the gender spectrum and

Britta: things of that sort, I'm definitely still expanding My gender literacy, and as such, I'm going to stumble. So please correct me at any point in this conversation. I don't want the desire to be perfect get to get in the way of growth and learning, because I often see that that happens.

Introducing Herbie's Family Journey

Britta: So to start off, is there anything so far that you want to correct me on in anything that I've said

Herbie: Not yet.

Britta: Okay, thank you. So what I was thinking where we'd start is, if you could kind of introduce us to your journey and your family building process, where are you and how did you get there?

Herbie: Okay, yeah, sure. So

Herbie: I have three kids. My oldest is seven, and I have five year old twins. They're five years old already. Yeah, they're five years old. Oh my gosh. How did that happen? Yeah,

Herbie: yeah, it's wild.

Herbie: The pandemic, like, also really made the passage of time, like, extra weird, I think.

Herbie: Yeah, so I

Herbie: am married. I married my wife

Herbie: in 2015

Herbie: and

Herbie: we knew we wanted to have kids. That's even another longer story, but maybe just the one thing that's worth noting is, like, as a queer person, I didn't think I was going to have kids, so

Herbie: that was really, like, sort of later in our relationship, that she had to kind of convince me,

Herbie: like we can do that, and I want to do that. And so she came in knowing she wanted kids, and you came in not knowing you wanted kids. I didn't want kids. Didn't want kids, yeah, which is like, now I'm gonna have four kids. So like,

Herbie: I think, like, you can really grow and change in this life in unexpected ways.

Growing Up Queer and Not Imagining Parenthood

Herbie: But I, like, I think I had,

Herbie: like, a little bit out of like, anger and like, like, sort of like vengeance that was only being enacted on myself. But like, because I went through, like, coming out as queer as a young person, and feeling like I was kind of cast out

Herbie: of society,

Herbie: like I grew up in a

Herbie: in a Catholic family. I'm 40, so I grew up in the 90s. I didn't see like that. There was a future where I could have kids when I initially came out, it just, it just felt like those were, like, that was like a simple equation, like, if you are queer, you go, like, do queer things with queer people in queer cities. And that path doesn't include, it feels like the game of life, right? Where, if, like, Yeah,

Herbie: take that path. Okay, that was in, like, the legal support didn't exist for me. Like, right? I mean, when I came out, there was gay marriage in like, two states.

Herbie: There was not federal gay marriage,

Herbie: like, I came out in probably 2001

Herbie: and there wasn't federal gay marriage till 2015

Herbie: Yeah. So it's just a long way of saying like, I just feel like, maybe the lens of like people thinking like, this is what my adulthood is going to look like. I'm going to have a family, and I'm going to be a parent like I, I spent like, a lot of my adulthood like, not having that, and

Herbie: I really just decided to do it because, like, I love my partner so much, and she was kind of, like, clear that she wanted to

Herbie: do it. So we had our first kid in 2018 and we

Initial Family Planning and Gender Affirmation

Herbie: at that time, we're like, let's have two to three kids, and Shannon will carry all the pregnancies, right? Because I just had no interest in it. I couldn't even really conceive of myself as like, someone that could do that

Herbie: like. So throughout the process of like, having our first it was like,

Herbie: I felt very comfortable being like the birth partner. If anything, I feel like it was kind of like a gender affirming experience for me.

Herbie: And I even, like,

Herbie: knew some, like, lesbian couples where, like, one partner, like, really had a lot of big feelings about, like, not carrying and I really noticed, like, I don't have those like, like, this feels like right for me, like I'm like, supporting this thing that Shannon's doing. And then when remedy was born, it's like, I'm supporting this like, dyad between Shannon and remedy, and like, I felt really good in that role.

Herbie: And

Herbie: one thing to maybe know is that like I I went on testosterone like after my twins were born. So if you would have like seen me at that time, you would have thought like that I look that I was a butch lesbian, and, so after our first was born, and even when

Herbie: Shannon was pregnant, people would say, like, oh so, like,

Herbie: who's going to be Mama? Who's going to be Dada? And we're like, I'm Papa, and Shannon is Mama and and Papa was, like, kind of my way of being like, not Mom, like, I'm not mom,

Herbie: right?

Britta: And were you using that language all along, or was that something that emerged for you as you were building your family,

Herbie: I think, like, so I remember thinking, like, I had friends who use the word Mapa, which is, like, Mama, Papa, and I think I was like, I don't know. I just felt like, not sure. And

Herbie: so I went with Papa, and it was, like, a little bit of a risk, and I would say, like, I got a mixed response from it. Like, some folks, like, were like, Oh, that makes sense. Like, that feels right for you. And some people, especially like, my Italian family members, or like, my Italian American Family members, were like, Papa, that's for men. And I'm like, I know. And like, at that time, I don't think they really, like, understood me, like the best that maybe they understand me now, because I think they thought I was like, a lesbian, right? And so, and it didn't matter to me. Like, I was just like, this is what I'm going to use for my kid. You can call me whatever you want. And I think that Shannon and I also had this thing from the very beginning, which is like, it's our kid. And actually, at the end of the day, they're like, my kid and Shannon's kid, like, that's more important than, like, what their grandparents think about how we do it. And so I would say that's like, a pretty consistent part, like, I just always like, center our children and like, what feels good for us, and let other people sort of like, come along for the ride. But I also want to say that when they meet other queer families who are doing things in, like, wildly different ways, and they're like, well, that's how they do it in their family. Like, my kids are fully able to hold that, yeah, they're just like, they get it. They're like, cool. Yeah, yeah.

Unexpected Twins and Shifting Family Plans

Britta: Yeah, it's not confusing for them. So, so then you have remedy, and that was Shannon carrying, Yep. And then you ended up with the twins. So how did that come about?

Herbie: Yeah, so basically, after remedy, we thought, like, Okay, we will do two or three kids, and Shannon will carry all the pregnancies. And then we did fertility treatment for pregnancy number two, and we ended up having identical twins. So, like, one egg split. And there's, like, no like, we did not do anything that, like, led to twins. There's not twins in my family or Shannon's family, like, it was completely spontaneous. And so when we found out, it was pretty shocking. And I think I remember, like, very, very quickly, we were both like, Oh, does this mean that we're done? Like, you know, of course, like, there's a lot of like joy and excitement, but I think there was also some feelings of like, like, what we had planned on was like to do at least one more pregnancy. And so that kind of like, but that was the end of the line for that particular agreement, right? But you had also mentioned that there was this part of it where you and Shannon, like, there was a little bit of negotiation. She would do two. She would do the first and then you would do the second. Was it like that?

Herbie: Yeah, yeah. So it was more like when the when the second pregnancy was like, we knew that we wanted to carry, like, we knew that there was, like, a possibility of, like, one or both of us carrying again, was sort of like, held like a future option, like, hadn't been decided and then, yeah. So like, after remedy, I was like, I'll do the next one.

Britta: So you had already, you were the one that had put your hand up and said, I want to carry the next one.

Herbie: Yeah. But like, that was before I was on testosterone, though, so things kept shifting. So it's like, it's hard to say, because, like, by the time remedy was two, and we were like, Okay, we're ready to do the next one. I was on testosterone at that point, and so it like, I sort of like, was a little bit like, oh, I don't know, like, I'm starting to like, feel more in my body. I had had, like, top surgery. I had been on testosterone. And the feelings of of wanting to carry, like, we're getting, like, a little bit muddier, like, so that was also when, like, we did end up doing like, Shannon carried the second pregnancy, and then we had twins, and that totally, like, just, like, scrambled the plan, right? And I think we, and we didn't know that we wanted to be done.

Herbie: So we both, like, kind of held on to this idea that maybe one more. And when we, when we would, like, hear about people who did not decide to be done, we would ask them, like, how did you know? Like, what did you do? And everyone is like, I don't know. You just know. And I was like, that doesn't help me, yeah?

Herbie's Decision to Carry

Britta: So what was it that made you go like, Okay, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna carry.

Herbie: So I

Herbie: like, worked through a lot of my feelings. I was in therapy, and I kind of came to this feeling of, like, I was really lucky in that I was able to, like, medically transition, because I met these people called informed consent clinics where you kind of just, like, go in and you're like, I'm an adult, and I understand that these are the implications. And they're like, Okay, we believe you. And they, like, start, start to work with you. And this was, like, 2020 when I did that, and it's like, it's almost like, not like that anywhere anymore. Like, there's like, it's very, there's, there's even fewer places to go than there were when I started. And it feels like every year there's, like, new legislation making it harder for trans folks, especially for young people and and so I sort of like, realized that like I'm very privileged in that I was able to access and do those things. And like one of the ways in which, like I thought I could sort of like, give back or or like was, like, to sort of, like, do this, like, weird thing that our family can do, where, like, I can go off testosterone, and, like, be pregnant, and, like, carry a baby for, you know, almost a year. And I don't have to stay off testosterone for the rest of my life. Like, it's a temporary thing that I can do. And I will say that, like, there are some, like, secondary sex characteristics that I built over the years that I was on testosterone that, like, remain, and, like, I don't really have a ton of anxiety about, like, losing them now, even though, even though I am off testosterone, like, so it's, it's interesting, because, like, I think for

Herbie: for some trans folks, or, like, some, like, masculine of center, non binary people, like, maybe it would feel harder to, like, imagine being like a pregnant person. And I do feel like, like, I was able to realize, like, I think I can do this, like, and I kind of felt like, if not now, when, you know, like, like, now's the time. Like, I'm getting older, we're already outnumbered. We have this, like, two parent, two uterus family, like, if we're gonna do this, let's, let's do it. And then I'm like, and this, this will be the end. I will be glad that we chose our end. I will be glad that we were able to choose our ending, yeah, rather than just being like, done, yeah, by some kind of, like, external factors, and so that's how we got here.

Going Off Testosterone and Restarting Cycles

Britta: Wow. So how was it for you going off the testosterone and coming back into starting up your cycle, because testosterone suppresses the cycle, Yep, completely. So, yeah, so it suppresses it completely.

Herbie: I had some anticipatory grief that, like, it was going to be really bad, and my period is not that bad. I think I kind of always was, like, lucky enough to have, like, a a pretty straightforward period. Yeah, it does sync up with the moon, actually, which, like, is kind of cool. But like, it took a lot longer than I thought. I went off testosterone January 2024 I want to say I didn't get my period until April 2024 so there were like, three months where I was kind of like, am I ever going to get my period? And actually, like during that period, time period of time, I was like, feeling pretty dysphoric and pretty, like, I felt like I had already given up testosterone to do this. And I was like, what if it doesn't happen? And I was like, I'll be really upset that I, like, lost this thing that really helps me. So that was, like, a little anxiety. That was sort of like, new, I would say, going back into it, like, we did a few cycles of, like, unmedicated, like, at home trying. And I was kind of like, I don't know. I'm not totally sure I'm ovulating, and there's, like, so much to track. I was like, doing a lot like, like cervical mucus and like, temperature and like, OPK sticks. And like, it's so much and like, so I was like, Okay, we're gonna give this three months, and then we'll reevaluate. And after three months, I was like, I'm ready to do medicated. I'm ready to do medicated because, like, I have control issues where, like, I'm like, a doer. I feel like things should work. If I try hard, they should work. And like, fertility is, is like the reminder that, like, that's not always how it is.

Britta: Were you tracking to see if you were ovulating in those three months?

Herbie: Yeah, I was trying to.

Britta: Were you ovulating?

Herbie: So I did temperature. I was doing, I was doing a lot. Okay, and some months I was and some months I wasn't, and it was kind of like, I wasn't really sure. But my wife was very confident we were trying at the right times, and so I trusted her, but I was like, I'm ready to take the like, sort of mystery out of this as much as possible. So we did go to a clinic and and do medicated cycles,

Herbie: which was great, because I like, there's this thing. So, like in, I went to a clinic that only works with queer families. So I, like, walked in and there's a bunch of like, gay dads, like, lesbian couples. And I was like, This is the spot. And, like, I'm like, this is great, like it was, and they, like, they understood fertility treatment in a much more, like, comprehensive way, than I've ever, like, been able to understand it. And so, like, when I started, I was doing a couple things. So, like, I was doing, like, the classic, like, medicated cycles for, like, ovulation induction. But I was also doing, like, trigger shots, and I was doing, like, progesterone supplementation. And like, I didn't even know, like, you could do any of that. Like, and so they were kind of like, throwing the kitchen sink of, like, how can we support your fertility? And I did get pregnant on like the third medicated cycle. So it was like, month three, month four, month five, and month six, I was pregnant. So it took it took basically six months of trying.

Navigating Prenatal Care as a Trans Patient

Britta: And then tell me, what was it like once you were pregnant, going in for the prenatal care and the way that you were treated or engaged with by medical practitioners?

Herbie: Yeah, so I want to say so like I was, I got pregnant through that queer friendly clinic, but I wasn't actually getting prenatal care from them. So my OB, she's an OB midwife. Her name is Megan. She is like one of three OB midwives who practice in Los Angeles, and she works out of Cedars Sinai. And so she's like, I would say she is pretty new. Like, I don't know exactly how long she's been working, but she's newer. And I had met her through one of my friends who's also a trans dad. And so I knew going in that this would be like a good experience. And I will say, like, in terms of, like, she just is, like, wonderful. Like, I, like, I've texted her a handful of times, and every time she responds, she's like, this is so exciting, or like, I can't wait to see you. Like, I'm really excited for your appointment next week. Like, she's just

Herbie: And I know that, like, my friends who have worked with her, like, really feel very loved and cared for. And I have not doubted that at all. Like, she's someone that, like, really, like, likes what she does. So that's just like to give her a shout out. She's like, also very funny and like, like, and I think a lot of that comes from, like, she is someone who, like, listened to trans patients who were saying, like, this care is not good enough. And she, like, learned how to do better. Like, she didn't start off, like, amazing. She, like, has grown and, and actually, like, even, like, has said that to me, like, I've learned, and I'm very grateful for what I learned, and I'm, like, changing how I do things because of what I learned. And so, like, that's, like, one of the reasons I work with her is, like, I felt like she was, was on, like, an intentional journey, and, like, I knew what I was walking into. And I know that, like, that's not the experience that a lot of like, trans masculine or non binary folks are having. Like, you're you walk in and you don't know, like, are they going to be okay? Like, like, are they going to be actively transphobic, or they're going to just, like, have some like, microaggression. So, like, that's a big part of my story is I'm not trying to blaze trails in prenatal care. Like, I intentionally found someone that is already like providing that care.

Experiences in the Hospital System

Herbie: And that being said, like, there's always things that, like, are not great. So, like, with the clinic, like, everyone was lovely. But, like, in the hospital system, they can't always update things like, correctly, because, like, a hospital is a large bureaucratic system, and they just don't have the ability to change the the IT system that's running, like, various parts of, like, how that works. And so, like, things like my pronouns and like, my chosen name, like, I was able to get those updated so that people would call me the right name and the right pronouns. But, like, my sex marker could not change because, like, the lab, like, needs to know, like, what sex someone was assigned at birth in order to, like, run the labs in the right way. And so there's things where you're like, oh, this is like, not ideal, but like, okay, like, I get that, like, this is a large hospital system with, like, interconnected parts, and like, I've seen the staff really try, and so, like, that's been my prenatal experience. Now I don't know what my birth experience will be, because I haven't been through that yet.

Britta: You haven't yet. Yeah, you haven't yet. But I, I mean, I would really love, as I said, to have you on after the baby's here, and to be able to have that conversation both with you and Shannon. So one thing that you said in there, aside from highlighting Megan, who sounds wonderful, is this idea of, I'm not trying to blaze new trails. I want to be with someone who's already done some of that work. And I think that that is an experience of a lot of people who are trying to navigate systems that they find othering, or have not been designed with them in mind, that there is an added labor involved in forging new trails. And when you're in the middle of something like pregnancy and parenting and other big life stuff, or just being a person in the world, you don't always want to take the time to be the teacher, educator, person that's helping other people catch up to where you want them to already be.

Herbie: And I think part of the thing for me is, if I'm going to be a pioneer, I need my labor to be recognized for it. And so I'm like, I'm going to do it, but that's going to come with a discount, or, you know, like, I but like, like, I do want to, like, I want to work with people who are, like, trying to figure it out. But but I do also want to say, like, when I am doing that, like, that's different, that's different work than, like, you know, just being, like, a patient and so so yeah, yeah, like, I'm doing, like, other like, sort of, like, advocacy work around this that I feel like is actually me, like, you know, like, I know that, like, I'm connecting with people who are trying to do better. I really just want to, like, want to show up as a human in prenatal care and like, get the care that, like, I need.

Britta: Yeah, yeah. So, so on that, on that note, then, what were some of the pieces that, um, that were meaningful to you in the prenatal care? Like, were there particular things Megan or others did or said that made a difference for you?

Meaningful Aspects of Prenatal Care

Herbie: I think Megan really, like, she uses language that like, resonates with me. Like, I think, like the chest feeding and like, you know, like parent and like and Papa, like, she like, has all the language down. And like, she's someone who also, like I saw her. She, like, did a little bit of primary care work, and she like, gave me my testosterone shot once when I was out of town and it was like, super helpful. And so like, those things, like, I just feel like she's, like, very well versed. And on top of that, like, I think she's like a newer OB midwife in a system where there's like, lots of other really wonderful midwives who have like, way more experience and have, like, been there longer, and so she really does, like, rely on this, like, group of people who are like, better at birth than she is to, like, you know, help inform, like, what, like, what her patients, like, like, experience, which I like, think is like a really, like, cool, like, apprenticeship model that I don't know. I feel like sometimes, like you just like, you're given, like, this newer like provider and they have, like, maybe like one other person they can like lean on, but like, I feel like she has, like, a really robust, like, birth team around her that she like, leans on. And I feel like I've been able to, like, benefit from that really interconnected, like, you know, support network for for birth. Like, I think, like, I went to this like,

Herbie: sort of, like, comfort measures class at the hospital. And like, the the midwife who was teaching was, like, someone who had been doing this for, like, 20 years or something. And like, she was just like, so knowledgeable. And like, I feel like I'm like, a pretty knowledgeable person about birth. And I was like, learning stuff from her. And I'm like, that's so cool. And like, I know that, like, Megan has access to her. Like, that's, like, incredible, like so, so there's, there's sort of, like, those things. And then, like, in terms of, like, I I'll say, like, the thing that has probably been like, a little bit hard for me, is, like, just like, a general feeling of being seen like this is a cisgender woman's body thing. Like, I think pregnancy is just so like, heavily gendered, and like, it's so it's so fully expected that, like, this is for women that, like, like, even if, like, you walk into a space and you're like, I'm a trans dad and I use he him pronouns, and I'm like, 35 weeks pregnant. Like, people just don't. They don't process. You like they're like, oh, but like, you're a mom, right? Or they're like, Are you? Are you going to breastfeed? And you're like, No, I'm going to chest feed. And like, even though, like you just told them. And so it's like, that has just been like, a very consistent thing throughout the entire process. And like, in a way, like, I'm really lucky because I've been pregnant once before, and like, I had top surgery after, and so like, now I'm pregnant again, and so, like, I think some people look at me, and they're like, oh, like, you got top surgery while you were pregnant. Or they think, like, you're like, like, a cisgender woman, and you decided to like remove your breasts, which is also, like, just such a mind, like, boggle for them. And I think they just don't, like, really know how to approach me. But like, I will say, like, a lot of the, like, sort of like, general like public I interact with, I don't think have ever interacted with someone like me. And so, like, a lot of their reactions are like, their reactions. And I, like, try to have compassion for them, because I'm like, I know they don't know any better. But also, like, some of them, like, do, say things where you're like, you should know better, you should do better, yeah? Like, especially if, like, you're a medical professional or you're trying to give care, like, people need to do better. So that's like, that's what I would say. Like, I think it's, it's definitely been an experience.

Navigating Public Perception and Gender While Pregnant

Britta: How has it been for you navigating being in a pregnant body at this point, after having, as you said, top surgery and having been on testosterone. So you've shifted how people are perceiving you in the world. And then when you become pregnant, and especially now at 35 weeks, you're starting to look obviously pregnant, and so that shifts people's perception, potentially, again. So how are you navigating all of that in your day to day life?

Herbie: I'll say a few things. One is that, like, I have a lot of like, trans masculine friends who say that, like, when they're pregnant, like they feel, like the most dysphoric they've ever felt. And like, I think they're like, and maybe the hardest part of the whole transition journey was pregnancy. And so I expected that that might be how I felt. And I feel like, I have not, I haven't felt, I haven't been experiencing a lot of dysphoria. I, you know, do I wish sometimes I didn't have to be pregnant to like, do this? Yeah, like I do. Wish that I do wish that. Like, I wish that, like, I, you know, could do this some other way. But like, like, overall, I haven't felt super dysphoric about being like pregnant, and I think that has to do with like I, when I was like thinking about doing this, I really like made myself think about like, what does it mean to be pregnant? And like, Am I okay with all of the pieces of it? And like, like, to have the baby in me, and, like, to like, feel kicks, and to, like, to have my body shift, and to like, have people look at my belly, and to like, like all of it. Like, I really sort of like, walked myself through, like, all of the stages. And I think, like, I'm lucky that I'm doing this in, like, a way where I had already done it once, and so I knew what to expect. And I was, like, very realistic with myself about, like, what this would be and and I think a big part of what's helping me not feel dysphoric as being pregnant is, like, I just don't feel like a woman. Like, I feel like, like, like, even even though I have this, like, pregnant belly. Like, I'm like, and and people are like, misgendering me all the time, which, like, is frustrating and annoying, and it has, like, been a hard part of this. But like, I don't, like, I think I just, like, because I went on testosterone and had top surgery, like, I was able to, like, really feel like a sense of, like, peace about my body and who I am that, like, it carried through pregnancy in a way that, like, I don't know if it would have otherwise. Like, I think, like, if I had gotten pregnant, like, six years ago when I got pregnant the first time, I think I would have felt very dysphoric if I had been the one to carry. Like, I really think I would have, and I think it was only because I could do testosterone and top surgery, and then get pregnant, that I was able to, like, really arrive at, like, a place of, like, I can do this and it's going to be okay. Like, I, I think that's so that's part of my journey. And I, and I will also say, like, I do have, like, a lot of like, trans masculine friends who got pregnant, but, like, didn't, couldn't go on testosterone, or, like, didn't get top surgery, and, like, we're really, really struggling. And so, like, I, I recognize, like, my story is, like, definitely not, like, I am trying to, like, represent, like, the like, best case scenario, right? Like, I'm, like I said, like, I was able to medically transition in ways that, like, other people didn't, couldn't, like, I had top surgery before Roe was overturned. Like, I, like, there are all these, like, pieces of it where, like, I feel like, I had, like, timing that was, like, very, like I I feel like things came together in a way where I was able to really be supported in doing this and like, it's, I do also recognize that for, like, some people, they cannot feel good about being pregnant because society is just not doing enough to help them feel okay, like, and so, like, they might, they might want a baby, but like, like being pregnant, like just feels so, so bad,

Herbie: yeah, um, so that's, like, sort of how I would answer that. Like, like I I would say that I'm, I'm feeling pretty okay. And I also know that my like postpartum time is going to be like a new thing, because I haven't been, like, newly postpartum with this body. And so I think there's going to be, like, some new feelings there, just, like, Who knows, you know? And then also, like, I don't know, like, I, like, I don't know about lactation and, like, and chest feeding and, like, what that's going to be like and so, like, I have, like, feelings about all of that too, but I don't know yet, like, like, so, I think that's, those are, like, sort of like, yeah, I would say, like, that's what I would say, Yeah.

Reflections on Body Changes and Gender Identity

Britta: What was it you were saying about how you feel in your body and your connection to, like a female body or, like, do you have sort of gender associations with various body functions? Or, like, how do you, how do you kind of separate that all out for yourself in in a healthy way?

Herbie: Yeah, I'll say, like, so if I think about gender as like, like gender expression, gender identity, like all of this, like, I feel like it's like very different for me to just, like, talk about, like bodies and then sort of, like think about, like, sort of, like layering on, like, some of this other stuff. And so, like, for bodies, like I very much like I when I like started talking about this pregnancy, like one of the things that I like wanted to be really clear with people that I was talking to, was like, Look, if you have a uterus, you have the organs required to be pregnant. Like, I don't think there's anything like biologically female or or Male about a uterus and ovaries, right? Like, like I like to me, like that's just like organs. And then there's all of these, like layers that we put on top of organs. And so, like, I don't, I don't, I have never had that feeling. And actually, like, one of the things that maybe helped me come to terms with my gender stuff was like, when I was younger, I kind of was aware that, like, I looked at the world very differently than other people. And there's like this moment where, like, I was out with, like, a bunch of girlfriends of mine, and they're all, like, talking about how, like, gross their period is and, like, how annoying it is. And, like, I was like, I mean, I don't really feel that way about it. Like, it's just like a thing that happens once a month. Like, I'm like, you know? And they're like, but aren't you sad when it comes? Aren't you, like, like, and I'm like, No. Like, and I like I also had really bad periods, like my periods were, like, quite painful as a younger person. And so it's like, I wasn't like, I wasn't, like, happy about it, but I like, I didn't feel like, sad about it. I just was like, This is what's happening right now. And like, and I think, like, I went through a lot of my life, like, being, like, kind of, like a robot, or like emotionally unavailable. And I was like, I'm like, Oh, I don't feel these things that other people feel like I'm like, I thought that there's something wrong with me. Like I was like, I'm broken in some way, or like, maybe I'm just like, I don't know, like, I'm neurodivergent in some way that, like, I don't, I don't know what it is. And then, like, when I found the language about gender identity, and I was like, Oh, I'm like, a guy. Like, I just, like, I don't, I don't feel like how, like, a woman feels, like I I don't. And so, like, and I think because of that, like, I very much was like, like, Yeah, I never like thought of the body stuff as like so associated with gender. And then later I realized, like, that is because my gender is different, right? So, like, it's like a very like, I don't, yeah, I don't know if that. I feel like I'm, like, talking a lot and maybe not making sense, but does that make sense?

Britta: It totally makes sense.

Herbie: It's yeah, okay,

Britta: yeah, no. And I think it's, it's, it's kind of interesting in that sort of the way I hear that is that for you, you just never linked those pieces up in the way that someone who has a strong female gender identity might, because you never had a strong female gender identity. And so those things were just kind of like, these are just functions of a body.

Herbie: And they're like, and people were always like, aren't you so excited to have babies come out of it? And I'm like, not really. I was like, I don't, like, I don't care, yeah.

Shannon's Perspective and Pregnancy Experience

Britta: And how is it been, like, working with Shannon in thinking about her experience of pregnancy and then yours. Have you guys learned stuff about each other through this process?

Herbie: Yeah, I mean, so Shannon's very she really loves being pregnant. Like, I think it's important to say that, like, there are some people where, like, even if, like, they're cisgender, they don't love being pregnant, like it's just not for them, right? Shannon really loves it. And I, like, I think she wishes she could carry more pregnancies. Like, I think, like, she could easily be, like, I want to have, like, 567, babies. Like, and I'm like, Okay, well, like, you're, you're at your limit, like so. But like, I think, I think, like, she really thrived during pregnancy, and like, I'm doing pretty well, but I'm not, I wouldn't say I'm like, thriving. I'm like, I'm so, like, pregnancy, tired. Like, like I am like, so, like, I like laid down twice today already, and it's like, 1pm, you know. And like, I'm just, like, very tired. And like, I'm not feeling like, amazing in in, like, this way. And so I think, like, I think Shannon, like has a little bit of, like, sadness around, like, me not having, like, a more positive pregnancy experience. But I'm like, I think this is fine. Like I think, like, I'm like, I'm doing. I'm good. Like, I'm not, I don't think this is, like, I'm not in a bad place. I just, like, I'm, like, pretty checked out is more what I would say. Like, I'm not, like, I'm not, like, diving super deep and like, like, really like, trying to, like, savor every kick. Like, I just, like, I'm like, cool. Like, there's a baby in there, like, I feel it. Like, it's, like, gonna come out at some point, like, I'm just like, I just feel, like, kind of like, whatever about all of it.

Britta: And is that a coping mechanism? Is it self protection? Or is it just this is kind of how you are? Like, what, how would you, how would you characterize that feeling?

Herbie: I would say, like, I think maybe it's like a little bit of my personality that I'm, like, kind of just like, very practical, like I'm like, like that just like, and, like, I'm like, I'm just like a, like a person who's like, let's just do this thing. But I do also think there's like a piece of it where I'm like, I'm not trying to have, like, an earth shattering, like, gender identity shifting experience. I did that like, six years ago, you know. Like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm good. Like, I've, like, I've done that work, and I'm like, this is something I can do. I would say it's more like that. It's like I'm like, not trying to, like, grow in major ways through pregnancy. Like, I'm like, I'm good, like, I'm, like, I'm in a pretty like, stable spot, and, like, I'm doing a thing, and it's, it's fine, you know, and like, I even talked to my therapist about it, and she was sort of like, trying to be like, why do you feel this way? And I'm like, maybe I just like, you know, like, I'm a dad, and I'm like, and I'm pregnant, and it's like, fine,

Herbie: you know, like, I'm, I'm not trying to have, like, a come to Jesus moment, yeah, right? Like, so I think, yeah, I don't know. Like, I think I'm just, yeah, I think I'm doing fine.

Britta: And I imagine being 35 weeks pregnant with three other kids at home is, is pretty exhausting in general, just like the day to day.

Herbie: Yeah, I'm, I'm, yeah, like, I'm very, I'm very tired and so, like, and I, and I think some of that is, like, it's the stage of pregnancy. Like, I'm in the third trimester, you just, like, are more tired. Like, that's just, like, pretty normal. And, and then also, like, I think, like, I just, like I'm in this place where, like, I'm like, trying to help my kids process this. Like, you know, they're, they're excited that there's a new baby coming, but also, like, they're not, like, they're, it's not a thing that they can, like, conceptualize. Like, I remember, like, when, when Shannon was pregnant with the twins, and remedy was only, like, 14 months, and so he, like, couldn't really understand what was coming. And like, I think, in some ways, like, my, my, my seven and five year olds, like, also, like, they know that there's a baby. They see my belly. They feel, like, kicks. But like, like, they're not, they're not that interested, you know, like, they're just like, cool. Like, okay, that's like, that's something that's happening. And like, I think once the baby is here and they're, like, interacting, that's when, like, it'll, it'll be more like, real for them. So I think we're just, like, trying to, like, get through. Like, trying to, like, finish up, like, some school stuff, like, so I can take a break. Like, I'm like, on the PTA, I'm like, trying to, like, hand off, like, a bunch of projects and, like, you know, and, like, just sort of, like, coast, basically. Like, I'm trying to, like, coast into labor, like, you know, set myself up. So I'm like, as relaxed as possible when, when I go into labor.

Differences Between Shannon's and Herbie's Pregnancies

Britta: Yeah, and get your rest bank full or somewhat full. Yeah, were there other differences in the way that Shannon experienced pregnancy and that you're experiencing pregnancy? Has there been anything that's come up where you're like, oh, or she said, like, oh, I didn't experience that, like, are there any like obvious physiological differences between you two as pregnant people?

Herbie: Um, I mean, I think, like, well, okay, so, so she, she, she had like, some pretty, like, debilitating morning sickness with her first two pregnancies. And I did not have a lot of morning sickness. And so when she got pregnant with remedy, and she, like, was just like, not able to, like, be a person for, like, like, several months. That was really hard for us, like, I, like, we were, like, preparing for that. I was like, this time around, I was like, I know I'm going to have to deal with all of that. And like, I just didn't, like, I had, like, some fatigue and, like, some, like, sensitivities to smells, but like, I didn't, I didn't have nearly the morning sickness. So that was, like, a really big one. And like, I think maybe this is, like a testosterone related thing, but like, like I did grow, like, so much, like body hair as part of my, like, transition, and it seems like it's, like, sort of stayed and and so, like, I'm like, a much hairier pregnant person than Shannon ever was. Um, and like, yeah, I've also been like, pretty, I think I've been hairier while I'm pregnant. So I think there is something about, like, maybe the hormones that are happening while I'm pregnant, that it's like, facilitating more hair growth. But like, but like, I'm just, I just look different. Like, I'm, like, a much hairier pregnant person, which is, like, fine. Like, I think, you know, like, but we, we've, it has been, like, something where, like, I'll sometimes, like, notice things like, because we're both, like, femmes, right? So we were both, like, when, when, like, Shannon was pregnant, and we would, like, be at like, the nail salon together, like, everyone, like would be like, Oh, look at you, you're pregnant. Like, so exciting. And, like, like, people can just, like, relate, and they can, like, they can, like, engage. Like, I go to the nail salon pregnant, and people are, like, kind of, like, trying to figure out, like, they're like, Are you Are you pregnant? And like, they'll, like, kind of like tentatively, like, say something, and I'm like, Yeah, I'm pregnant. And they're like, Oh, are you happy? And like, it's just like, like, there's just, like, a little bit more like, like it's the experience, like as a as a pregnant person out in the world is just a little bit more, like guarded, like I that's what I would say. Like, like, Shannon, I think, had a lot of moments where she felt very seen and celebrated. And I think like, I have some of that. Like, I have some of that. Like, I went to a park that I go to, like all the time, and like, the like, attendant was like, oh my god, you're pregnant. Like, I'm so happy for you. And like, I was like, that felt really good, because, like, she was just like, yeah, like, I'm seeing you as a pregnant person, and I recognize you, and, like, I know that you're always, like, here with your kids. And, like, that was really affirming. But like, more often, like, I'm just kind of like, I think people don't know what to do with me, yeah, and so they just, like, politely ignore it. And so there's, there's that difference. Like, I think, like, there's just, there's a way in which, like, Shannon was, like, getting, I don't know, a lot more, like, affirmations of the experience in in various contexts. And I just think that, like, that's less my experience, where it's like, it's a little bit more isolating, because people are, like, a lot more confused.

Britta: Right? Were you Is that something you anticipated going into it, or is that something you've encountered in the process? That's, that's bringing up stuff for you.

Herbie: I anticipated it. Yeah, like, I, like, I, I expected that this would be, like, this part of my journey, and like I was, I like, I like, read a lot of, like, birth stories of other, like, trans dads and and there's quite a few, and many of them talk about how isolating it is, and how, like, you know, and so I kind of like prepared myself for that experience, and like, I haven't felt, I think I feel like I'm someone who's pretty okay being alone. I don't necessarily, like, seek a lot of community in various like ways. And so, like, I think, like, that's probably working in my favor, where I'm like, this is fine, you know. But I, but I also, like, am someone who's very online, and so I do have, like, queer community online, and so I'm able to, like, connect with folks that way, and like, you know, like, find sort of, like moments, like of of, like, shared experience and things like that. So, like, I do have, I do have, like, queer community, and I do have like community with like other, like, trans masculine parents. And like, I think that helps.

Planning for Four Children

Britta: Yeah. So you mentioned something when we were kind of prepping for this conversation about the choice of four as a number, and about there being two uteruses in the family, and it being a particular choice, can you say more about that? Because I felt like that was a particular piece that would be interesting to talk about.

Herbie: Yeah. So like, remedy was always like, remedy was like, a baby we always wanted. Like, Shannon, and I were both, like, really in alignment. Like, we want to have a kid. We really want to be parents.

Herbie: I think I want to care.

Herbie: Three. It was very like, explicit. Our conversation was like, Okay, you do number two and I will do number three. And Shannon had always wanted to do another pregnancy. And so our twins are, like, completely spontaneous,

Herbie: like there was no fertility treatment in our journey. So I think we were shocked, yeah, and

Herbie: there's no twins, like in my family or anything, we were completely shocked. And pretty immediately, we were like, Does this mean

Herbie: that we're done? And does this mean that, like, Shannon isn't going to carry another pregnancy. And I think Shannon and I both, like,

Herbie: from that moment, we're always interested in keeping the door open to another pregnancy.

Herbie: Yeah, and I think it'll be exciting if we're able to, like, have another conversation and have her, like, speak her whole side of it. But I, I mean, in a way, like when I, when I meet people and they're like, you're having four I'm like, Well, there's a very specific story, and it has to do with two uteruses, and

Herbie: Shannon and I are both like believers in like we want to choose our ending. Like,

Herbie: in some ways, like that is a big part of this, um and and also that. Like Shannon liked being pregnant. She went through her first pregnancy

Herbie: all the while with the feeling that this is the first of several, and I'm sort of, like, preparing myself to walk this road again, even as I'm like, walking it now and then I think, like, we just both wanted to realize that, like,

Herbie: and like, once you have three kids, you're already outnumbered, you already have the minivan. So,

Herbie: yeah,

Herbie: but it is like,

Herbie: I'm very aware of how hard it is. Now it feels very different than when, even when we were having the twins, I had, like, a one year old. Now I'm like, Oh, I know a lot. I know a lot.

Britta: Yeah, your innocence. Your innocence is busted.

Herbie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is gone

Britta: by the time you've you've got a seven year old and two five year olds. Yeah? And you know right now you're heading back into newborndom.

Herbie: Yeah, you're right on the threshold again. This is, like, the most relaxing moment I'm going to probably have for

Herbie: for a few months, yeah, for a few months,

Britta: because you really are at 35 weeks, you're right on that precipice yet again. And it's one of the reasons I'm grateful we were able to have this conversation now. And it's my hope to have you and Shannon back

Britta: once, once the postpartum process is given some time, and we can can kind of

Britta: hear from both of you about the experience of both

Britta: caring two of your children,

Britta: which is a unique part all on its own. Yeah? So as we start to wrap up, is there anything else you want to share with listeners, or do you have anywhere that people who want to learn more about you can can connect with you?

Connecting with Herbie

Herbie: Sure? Yeah? So I'll say like I am very much not a birth professional. I identify as an amateur birth junkie, which I do love that idea. That's that's a good one. Yep. I'm just like to hang out with birth professionals all the pretty fun group, yeah,

Herbie: but yeah, I have a little sub stack if people want to read some of my writing that's at Herbie huff.substack.com

Britta: and I'll put it in the show notes as well.

Herbie: Cool. Yeah. And other than that, I'm just like a regular, regular dude

Herbie: who gave birth. And is a dude,

Britta: a regular dude who gave birth. I love that, and I, I'm so grateful that that you came on and shared some of your story. And I, I feel really grateful that Michael recommended you. I think it was Michael, maybe Sarah, too, who recommended you to me during your pregnancy, yeah, and that we got to work together before all that, all the stuff happened where we weren't able to work together in person for a number of years, we got to slide in and have some in person, totally session together, which was, was really

Britta: wonderful experience for for me, and getting to know both you.

Final Question: Memory Consolidation

Britta: And Shannon on that process as well, as you know, in other ways since then. So thank you. So one of the things I love to do at the end of conversations is to ask an ending question. So are you ready for the final question?

Herbie: I'm ready.

Britta: Okay, what's one thing you feel passionately about that you want new or expectant parents to see, hear, feel, or know during this profound period of their lives that they may not be thinking about or knowing.

Herbie: Okay, the one I'm going to say is the one that I'm personally practicing right now, which is around memory consolidation.

Britta: So okay, say more about that, because what does that mean?

Herbie: All it is is like, you know how people say, like, it's the days are long, but the years are short. You feel this like that. You're passing through all these

Herbie: sort of like ways of living that you'll never exactly live again and and you then you forget them, and you're like, seeing your children in a version of themselves is so fleeting, but like, so wonderful. And you sort of like, wish you could, like, bottle it up and save it forever, like what I'm trying to do

Herbie: like right now in my parenting, because I feel like every every day is like, so, such a crazy Scrum, and I'm so tired at the end of every day is like, really, just try to like in an embodied way. Remember things like, like, we have so many technologies for memory and, and I use those, but, but I really treasure like, having memories like in me and, and so I'm just, like trying to foster them. And one thing that, like neuroscience says will help us foster them, is to, like, have some time every day where I do nothing, and my brain just kind of like, you know, settles down like, that's when,

Herbie: according to

Herbie: science, like our memories can form, and I just, like, when I learned that, I realized, like, oh, there are a lot of times in my life where I have not had that where, like, instead of doing nothing, I was, like, just scrolling,

Herbie: or, like, trying to do something, like, because, like, you're tired and your brain just wants to, like, find some stimulation. And now

Herbie: it's like, enjoy doing nothing if you can, and try to focus on what you want to remember is what I would like tell myself, if I could go back to when I was getting ready to have my my kid, my first kid, and my my twins, like, I would say that, like, yeah, like, a lot of things will slip away, but like, just like, put a little intention behind, like, letting something sink in every day, and you'll get to keep some stuff

Britta: HERBIE, that is

Britta: profound wisdom that I think I needed to hear myself today, because I am now in grandparent mode. My kids are out of the house. I'm in a whole different phase, and those transitions and turning of the memory wheel keeps going, and I do want to hold on to some of it. So thank you for that practice and reminder and for being with us today. I'm so grateful.

Closing

Herbie: Thank you for having me. Britta,

Britta: Oh, it's wonderful to have you. Thank you, and thank you listeners for sharing
this time with us. If something we shared today impacted, supported or moved you. Please share this episode with a friend. I produce this podcast myself, and your support makes it possible to show a little love for the podcast and these conversations. Please follow rate and review. If you'd like to continue the conversation, please join us on Instagram at transformed by birth. I look forward to being with you again on the next episode of transformed by birth. Now let's gather what we want to take away from this episode with an inhale, maybe taking a moment of of that stillness and emptiness like what Herbie just shared with us. Take it in with an inhale, and we'll blow out the candle with an exhale until next time bye, friends, you.