Fatherhood, Healing, and the Power of Showing Up
When we talk about pregnancy, birth, and new parenthood, much of the conversation understandably centers on mothers and birthing people.
We talk about matrescence, postpartum recovery, identity shifts, and the emotional realities of becoming a parent. Increasingly, we recognize that motherhood is not simply a new role but a profound developmental transition.
But what happens to fathers?
While fatherhood may not involve the same physical transformation, it is often every bit as life-altering. It reshapes identity, relationships, priorities, and the way a person understands themselves in the world.
In this episode of Transformed by Birth, I sit down with fatherhood advocates Bobby Brown and Brandon Rennels to explore the often-overlooked transformation that occurs when men become fathers. Together, we discuss healing, identity, community, advocacy, and why fatherhood deserves to be recognized as a rite of passage in its own right.
Looking Back to Move Forward
One of the strongest themes throughout this conversation is the way fatherhood invites men to revisit their own childhood experiences.
For both Bobby and Brandon, becoming a father brought new awareness to their relationships with their own fathers. Questions they hadn't previously considered suddenly felt important, and old wounds resurfaced.
Yet, so did gratitude, admiration, and a desire to understand how they had been shaped by the people who raised them.
This is one of the hidden aspects of becoming a parent. Children have a way of bringing us back into relationship with parts of ourselves we thought we had already figured out.
Becoming a father often means examining what you want to carry forward and what you want to leave behind. It asks difficult questions about legacy, responsibility, and the kind of person you hope to become.
More Than a New Role
Modern culture often treats fatherhood as something practical.
A father provides, supports, and helps. While those things matter, they only tell part of the story.
Throughout our conversation, Bobby and Brandon describe fatherhood as something much deeper. Rather than simply taking on new responsibilities, they found themselves undergoing a process of personal transformation.
The arrival of a child created opportunities for healing, growth, and self-reflection that they had not anticipated.
In many ways, fatherhood became an invitation to become more fully themselves. Not because they suddenly had all the answers, but because parenting required them to keep growing.
The Need for Community
While conversations about maternal mental health, postpartum care, and community support have expanded in recent years, fathers are often expected to navigate their transition largely on their own.
Many men receive very little guidance about what fatherhood will ask of them emotionally.
There are few spaces where fathers are encouraged to speak honestly about fear, uncertainty, grief, overwhelm, or the challenges of adjusting to parenthood. And yet these experiences are incredibly common.
Both Bobby and Brandon emphasize the importance of creating communities where fathers can be vulnerable, ask questions, and support one another without judgment.
TheBirth as an Initiation
While the birthing person is undergoing the physical experience of labor, partners are also crossing a threshold.
Many fathers describe birth as one of the most intense experiences of their lives. It requires them to navigate uncertainty, advocate for their families, make decisions under pressure, and witness someone they love moving through an enormous physical and emotional experience.
Birth often asks fathers to step into a new level of presence and responsibility.
Not as spectators or assistants, but as active participants in the creation of a family.
Like all rites of passage, it changes the people who move through it.
The Ongoing Work of Becoming
Both Brandon and shared that fatherhood is not a destination. There is no moment when someone finally arrives and becomes a fully formed parent. Instead, fatherhood is an ongoing process of learning, adapting, repairing, and growing.
Children continue to invite us into new versions of ourselves, and each season reveals new strengths and new challenges.
And perhaps that is what makes fatherhood such a powerful rite of passage.
It is not a single moment; it is a lifelong process of becoming.
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
- Connect with Bobby via Instagram at @donutswithdads and @bobbyoverflow. Bobby can also be reached via email at donutswithdadsla@gmail.com.
- Brandon mentioned these two documents during the interview, and they include his contact information.
Continue your exploration with more Transformed by Birth podcast episodes, and connect with us on Instagram @transformedbybirth where the conversation keeps unfolding.
Introduction and Welcome
Britta Bushnell: Hello folks, and welcome to Transformed by Birth, a podcast about the rite of passage of pregnancy, birth, and new parenthood. I'm your host, Britta Bushnell, author, mythologist, childbirth educator, and an all-around deep diver with a side of goofball. I'm so glad you're here today. We're talking about fatherhood, so grab your comfy beverage of choice. I've got mint tea in my cup today, or take us along for a walk as we connect with two dads, Bobby Brown and Brandon Reynolds. Before we begin, we start the way we always do by lighting a candle. If you want to join me, please do, or just take a breath as I light mine. Today's candle is in honor of dads. Much of the conversation around childbirth and new parenthood centers on the mother, but our cultural focus on moms has largely left dads out of the picture, while simultaneously asking more of them than ever before. Birth education, preparation for the fourth trimester, lactation support — it's mom, mom, mom, mom. So, what about dads? Often overlooked is the transformation a man goes through when he becomes a father. The expectations pile on: be present, support your partner through their own transition into parenthood, show up fully for your family, and do all of this largely without a roadmap. Where support for new mothers is at least, at least mediocre, for fathers it is nearly non-existent. Today, I'm joined by two men who are each, in their own way, working to change that. Bobby Brown is a husband and father of four, and the founder of Donuts with Dads, a fatherhood and wellness community built around helping dads lead with presence, purpose, and emotional awareness. His work is about helping fathers break unhealthy cycles, build real connection, and show up fully for their families and for themselves. Brandon Reynolds is a father and professional group facilitator, and the director of the Interactive Group Institute, where he leads relational groups centered on presence and honesty. He is currently developing a father-son connection program, specifically for new dads and their own fathers. Bobby and Brandon come from different corners of the fatherhood support world, but share a conviction that new fathers deserve more than they're currently being given. Bobby, Brandon, welcome. I'm so glad you're here.
Bobby Brown: Thanks, brother.
Brandon Reynolds: Thank you. Good to be here.
On-Mic Technical Glitch
Britta Bushnell: All right, so I agree that fathers do deserve more airtime, more support, more care, and each of you has a particular passion for supporting dads, and you are also dads yourself. So I kind of want to start this conversation with talking about the journey of becoming a dad. I love the word journey, some people hate that word journey, but it shows up — it's on the cover of my book, so it shows up a lot for me — but the journey of becoming a father feels like an under-spoken about, under-misunderstood part. Currently, there's a whole lot going on about the journey of becoming a mother, and it's been coined and talked about as a developmental stage of matrescence, and it's getting a lot of air time, so I'm curious, if we were to use that terminology, matrescence, and pivot. Oh, did I glitch?
Brandon Reynolds: Yeah.
Bobby Brown: He glitched. He froze, froze fully back, but you froze.
Britta Bushnell: How far back? What was I saying?
Bobby Brown: Fatherhood is —
Brandon Reynolds: Yeah, probably maybe —
Bobby Brown: — underappreciated. I don't know where, "underappreciated."
Brandon Reynolds: 15 seconds, maybe 10 seconds. Like, enough that Bobby and I were like, yeah, she's alive. It was like, we winked at each other. I was like, yeah, okay.
Britta Bushnell: This is not good, guys. I don't know what's happening with my internet today. I'm connected to —
Brandon Reynolds: Yeah.
Britta Bushnell: Okay. Well, you guys can do this or something, if I glitch or something, so that I don't —
Bobby Brown: I don't know if we move. I don't know if it helps.
Britta Bushnell: I don't know what's going on, but alright — Chris, this is me speaking to my editor Chris: you're gonna have to fix this somehow — so I'm gonna pop back in. So, there's a lot of discussion in society about the developmental phase of becoming a mother called matrescence. I'm curious — we don't hear about patrescence. Is that a thing? Do you feel that patrescence deserves its own focus as well? Is that a developmental phase that men go through becoming a dad? Bobby, you want to take this one?
Patrescence: Is There a Word for What Dads Go Through?
Bobby Brown: Sure. First time hearing that word — makes sense. I'm glad there's a word for that thing. Yes, I think it needs — and it is a thing. I like to simplify everything for dads, though. When we start to talk about things, because a lot of times it's the first time we've been talking about emotions. I love that. Let's —
Britta Bushnell: — let's make it simple. Yeah.
Bobby Brown: But you did, you broke it down like, what is that? What is that startup point of becoming a father? Is there a switch? Like, what is day one of, okay, I'm about to be a father? What's training camp look like, right? I think, yes, it's a thing, and I think it's something that just happens, but I think it's also what I've noticed — and what it was for me — was the permission I needed to heal. Like, becoming a father was — okay, I'm about to be a father, I have a reason to heal now. I have a reason to pay attention to these things now. So maybe that's that journey of it, and I've seen it with numerous other fathers. They're starting to pay attention to the things that helped make them who they are and what they are, right? Mainly because we all start to think — the first thing is, alright, can I provide for this baby and my partner, or whomever it is? How are people going to react to it? And then the process of acceptance, and once we accept it, it's like, okay, what type of father do I want to be? And for me, that was the first time I really had fantasized about it. It was the first time I really thought about it, and what steps do I need to take now to put that into action. And it was a lot of, okay, I need to forgive, I need to process, I need to do a lot of these things. So I think, yes, there is something there. Does it need to be recognized — like, does it need to be the theme of men's classes and circles and things like that? Not at all, because I think it's something that will — even when postpartum depression became accepted for men to say, I'm going through that — even now it's still, it's something like, oh no, that's not, men don't do that. I'm different, I'm going through something, but it's not that. So I think labeling things is really hard for men in general. To kind of title it and then make it a thing versus, hey, let's get together and talk and see what happens, right?
Britta Bushnell: So maybe that's part of why we don't have a term for it, even if it's happening, even if there is a big transition that is occurring. It's almost like, let's slide in kind of quiet and not let it be known that there's a big thing happening, but also address it. Is that kind of doing both?
Bobby Brown: Yeah, I think so. And I think it's also not just maybe patrescence, as we're calling it — it's probably a lot of things that are happening that that just being part of it now. If you need to wrap it all up, sure, call it whatever it needs to be called. But I think it's also the first time — for me, anyway — that I was, like I said, given the permission to heal and to do this work, and there's somewhat of a due date, and there's somewhat of a timeline in which you've got to do these things, which can come with more pressure. But I think, yeah, so titling the journey is — again, it's my first time hearing that, and I'm like, would I want to call it that, or how would I refer to it? I think it's too grand.
Britta Bushnell: Too grand. I get it. But I love that you said it was a time when you had permission to do this work, and it also sounds like an invitation to do this work — like your child was inviting you. Like, oh, this just got real. I gotta do some stuff if I want to be the kind of parent I want to be, if I want to be the kind of dad I want to be. Did I get that right?
Bobby Brown: Yep, you got it.
Britta Bushnell: Yeah. Brandon, do you want to jump on that at all? Is there any aspect you want to piggyback on what Bobby was sharing?
Brandon Reynolds: I'll just say from my own experience that it certainly would have been helpful for me to understand what a significant identity shift would happen. And I think it's different for different people and different dads, but I had a different challenge or opportunity in my experience. Before becoming a father, I taught classes on mindfulness, emotional intelligence — and so I was in a world where everyone around me is talking about emotions and experience and self-regulation and self-management and empathy. It felt like I had my own kind of — I don't know, if PhD-like — just a level of experience intellectually and conceptually about things. But I had a friend and mentor who was like, oh, a child will accelerate your process of realizing that you can't actually figure this all out. Like, you already think you can figure it out, which you can't, but a child will show you that you just can't. And so there was something that broke down in that, that I think is captured in what I'm hearing you both describe.
Britta Bushnell: Yeah, I love that, Brandon — that humility piece. Yeah, I mean, we come into parenthood with a fair bit of life experience, and we can come in with a little bit of hubris, a little bit of like, I got this, what's a baby, right? And then this child comes in, and it's like, holy bejeebuses, what? What do I do now? Who am I? And I do think that piece — at least from a mom's perspective, and what I've seen working with a lot of dads — is a real identity confrontation. Like, who am I in this iteration of my existence that I didn't know as a person in the business world, or as a person with my friends, or as a person with my family of origin? But now with a child, whether it's providing and having that, or being confronted with the lack of control that is inherent with a newborn — that throws us off. That's big, right?
Brandon Reynolds: Yeah.
Bobby Brown: And it's still, to this day, it's not something you really get used to. Like, I get home from work, I want to do what I need to do to relax for 15 — bah, bah, did you get this? Did you get that? Did you get this? Did you get that? And it's like, there used to be days — come home, and there wouldn't be a sound at all until I got ready for work the next day, and if there was —
Britta Bushnell: — a sound, it was probably carefully selected music or entertainment of some sort that was self-chosen, and now you don't get to choose that stuff as much.
Brandon Reynolds: Yeah.
Britta Bushnell: I sometimes will say that when you have a first baby, they come into an adult's world and they change your world into a child's world, and then when you have subsequent children, those children come into a child's world because your world's already been transformed.
Bobby Brown: Wow, yeah. That's crazy. To be a baby who pops up in a child's world — it's hard to — and I think that's why they're closer, and, same in my case, more attached to their creativity and artistic side longer than I see my first one kind of conforming.
Britta Bushnell: Well, the first one had a lot of work to do to get you all to realize you were actually parents and living in a child's world, and that can take a little bit of work on those firstborns. Bobby, can you take us back? I know you're the father of four, but if you can kind of think back to when you found out, or in the journey of becoming a father — what do you remember about that, and what did that experience teach you about yourself and about fatherhood?
The Moment of Finding Out: Bobby's Story
Bobby Brown: So, like —
Britta Bushnell: So maybe when you first found out you were going to be — or when you first became a dad, like, what do you think?
Bobby Brown: I'm going back to when I first found out, and I remember I was coming back from playing pickup basketball in my car. My girlfriend — now wife — was at my house while I left to go play ball, and I was coming home. And she's like, alright, took another test, yep, it says what it said. And I'm in the car, like — I felt like I wanted to get angry, mainly because of the — I think about it after the fact, right, this is through therapy and all this stuff — and now I realize what I was actually feeling in that moment, and why I felt like I wasn't mad, but I felt like I wanted to be mad. Like, this was the opportunity for me to be as mad as I ever wanted, to let all my rage out, and I didn't. And I thought back and healed through it, and talked through it, and it was because in that moment I was so afraid of becoming what my father had become. I was so mad — like, oh, I did the same thing he did. I had just done everything he said was going to happen, and was becoming him. And in reality it was a beautiful thing — I was having a child with someone who I met in my spiritual community, who I had known for years. Yes, we were both young, but both of our parents were excited. Our mothers were so happy. So it was a beautiful moment that was just one of those moments where — okay, if you would have asked me six months before then, what's the worst thing that could happen to you right now? A baby would be the worst thing that could happen to me in that moment. So I thought, right, and then it happens, and you're like, well, I can handle a lot more than this, I think. And what I learned about myself through that process was I was exactly who I wanted to be. I was a man of integrity, I was a man of love and compassion. I was able to be there for my partner in ways I never imagined being there for someone other than myself. I saw my selfish lens shift, and it was just ready to pour out — like I removed the stopper from the top.
And just ready to pour, right. Everything that I used to write — a little bit back in the day, poetry — I would always write about loving someone this way and being this kind of person and being this kind of thing. And in that moment I had the choice to be like, okay, I have an opportunity right here to be all of those things. So I think for me it was really stepping into the shape of the man I wanted to become, all while recognizing I was leaving behind this thing that I thought there was only one way to do. I thought the template that I had seen was the only way to get it done, and I chose to do something different. And it's not a battle, but it's something I'm very grounded in every single day — realizing these things. We have free will, and I can at any point have done the things I was so afraid I would —
Britta Bushnell: It really became a practice for you. It sounds like having to make intentional choices to be the father you wanted to be. But in that moment, I feel like — snapping my fingers — that moment of finding out really brought a confrontation up for you. That sounds like it was maybe the beginning of a catalyst of change.
Bobby Brown: Yep. It was a beautiful moment.
Britta Bushnell: Thank you for sharing that. And I've heard with clients in classes a similar kind of story about feeling that confrontation with the term "father," as associated to their own father.
Brandon Reynolds: Yeah.
Britta Bushnell: And how much that can get intertwined — which I know, Brandon, is part of what is inspiring some of what you're working with these days. Do you want to speak to that at all?
The Father-Son Relationship: Brandon's Story
Brandon Reynolds: I mean, it's — well, first, thanks Bobby for the honesty there, and yeah, just also describing what I'm sure was years of work and understanding, and to be like, oh, I realized it was because this — it's like when we share our insights, and it's like, yeah, that was six years of therapy and four journeys on this, and yeah —
Britta Bushnell: — it's kind of bullet points about something really deep.
Brandon Reynolds: I feel like you just gave us a window, and I was like, dang, man, that's deep.
Britta Bushnell: Well said, Brandon. Thank you. Yeah.
Bobby Brown: Appreciate you.
Brandon Reynolds: Yeah. I'll pick up on that. My experience of becoming a father — I didn't realize how important to me the father-son relationship was, and how impactful. I know it, but there was something about knowing I was going to be a father that just brought up a lot of stuff about my own childhood and my own dad. The things that, thankfully, my dad did that I was afraid of not living up to — he has qualities and things that I wanted to be and was afraid that I couldn't be. And then other things that I looked at and thought, wow, I want to do this so differently. But my child's not even here yet, and I kind of poured myself into the desire to — this sounds so silly to say, but it was true — a friend described it, he's like, it sounds like you're trying to power wash your suffering. Like, I was like, I'm gonna transform my anger and not be petty and always be available and be emotionally resonant and be responsible, and just — and of course it was too much, but the desire was from my dad. The tone — one word of the tone of his voice could shift my entire being. There's so much power in that relationship, and I think I was like, whoa, I just got handed this power, and I want to do so well with it. So there was just a whole series of things there. And so for me — to get to your question, Britta — I went through a process with my own father, who was willing to, because he saw how much I was suffering with that, how much it was bringing up for me, how afraid I was of not being a good father according to whatever my bar was. And we did some facilitated sessions together, where we did some listening, where I was sharing some things from my own childhood, and he was just listening, and they were so powerful and valuable — to have a space to share in that relationship, and to explore. And so it inspired me to want to offer that kind of space for those who are willing for it, to help new fathers look at the relationship with their father. Even for some people whose fathers aren't alive, or they are alive but don't want to have that kind of conversation — there's just so much charge there. I'm feeling my body heat up just speaking about it.
Britta Bushnell: Yeah, that's powerful. Both of you are speaking about becoming a dad connecting so profoundly into your heart and your past and your desires. I'm hearing in what both of you are saying so much hope and connection to wanting to be a dad that you feel good about being. And that desire really catapulted a whole bunch of personal work that sounds profound. Both of you sound like you went on a deep, profound journey of self-excavation. Although — "power wash" might be the best phrase.
Brandon Reynolds: You just see it. Suffering's here, suffering's there. I'm running out of time, there's only six months left, now there's five months. It's like —
Brandon Reynolds: God bless myself, you know, for trying. I appreciate that part of me, but —
Britta Bushnell: That feeling of urgency can show up with a positive pregnancy test, because there is a timeline. Bobby, you spoke to that too — that feeling of, oh, it's here, it comes — that can be a really big piece. So both of you had this kind of moment of awakening to wanting to consciously think about who you wanted to be as a father. Who helped you along the way with that? Did you reach out to friends and mentors? Like, who's out there that is even accessible for this? I mean, I know it has led to some of what both of you do, but on your own fatherhood journeys — Bobby, who did you reach out to, if anybody?
Finding Support: Male Mentors and Community
Bobby Brown: So, my biological father was not — he was what I'm — he was the fuel behind me having the integrity behind certain things. Now, my stepfather, who's been in my life since I was five, was very integral to me having some type of a positive mindset or positive outlook on what fatherhood could be in certain aspects, because he wasn't my birth child — he still chose to want to be a father. I'm like, okay, so I see what it looks like to want to be there, right?
Britta Bushnell: Does it make a difference to have somebody who had chosen — there, was that a piece that mattered?
Bobby Brown: 1,000%. Because you really feel rejected, you feel like, alright, nobody wants me, I'm worthless — someone brought me into this world and doesn't want anything to do with me physically, right? And then someone who comes around, and through how much this person loved my mother, they love me — that is what I often ask myself. And at five, sure, he wasn't there when I was a baby, there were other family members who weren't. I'll touch on that in a minute. But I was able, through that, to see what being a man was all about — being dedicated to something, doing things even when you don't want to, surrendering and giving your all for what you love, to provide, to build, to be present, right. So I got a lot of that from him. Prior to him, the men I think about were my uncle, Uncle Robert, who I was named after — really being a male presence in my life — and that kind of morphed into my stepfather. And then that was really it for the friends, uncles and stuff, but none who —
Britta Bushnell: Did these men help you while you were on your journey into fatherhood, after you found out you were becoming a dad?
Bobby Brown: Somewhat. My stepfather, for sure, mainly just like, you're going to be fine — reassurance, which was good. But for the nitty-gritty, no, because he had never really done it right. He had never had a baby, he had never had a pregnant partner, he had never had a partner who's going through postpartum depression, he'd never had to set boundaries with family. So a lot of that, no. But for me it wasn't, "how do I do this blah blah blah" — I've never been the type to, "hey, how do I do something?" I'm going to figure it out and do it my own way, versus being told how to do something and being like, that's great, I'm going to go do it this way. So I just skip that part. Which comes with a lot of trial and error, but the lessons they taught me and their presence — the impact that had on me — allowed me to show up, show up, show up, show up, show up, show up. Because that's what they did: they showed up. And it just worked out, no matter what they were doing. So me being able to just show up — I think that was a skill set, a mindset, something I don't think I had innately, because I didn't get it from my father — but something that was taught to me and handed down to me through the men in my life. But during that time, I was the only one — I had no friends who had babies. We were very heavy into Agape at the time. Reverend Leon played a role in just kind of connecting me with other people. So there wasn't —
Britta Bushnell: — a lot of external support for your transition into fatherhood.
Bobby Brown: My father-in-law was very impactful, so I guess that's somebody I could have those conversations with. But that was really after our first was here. But prior to, yeah, it was just me, like, alright, I need to find a new community, I need to find something I can pour into — or something that can pour into me — and I typically start that process by pouring in first, making deposits before I take withdrawals.
Britta Bushnell: Yeah. And do you think your own journey of that process — doing a lot of it, what sounds like mostly solo — was that part of the impetus for starting to work with dads?
Bobby Brown: Sure, yes. That was definitely something I came from. But honestly, it was selfish. I really —
The Origin of Donuts with Dads
Bobby Brown: I hit a new need, I hit a new level. At this point I had three kids. So we start this January 2019. My girls were about a year and a half — twin daughters, about a year and a half. My wife is at this point starting her postpartum journey, not just of the twins, but really she had delayed processes, just because you have to create a safe and stable environment of some sort for it to really hit. So she's really going through it, which was beautiful, but it was still a lot. We're in LA, and a lot's going on. So I just needed something. And my mother-in-law, Kimberly Durden, who has Kindred Space LA — they had all this mother support, which was awesome. My wife would go to that, she'd come back, and she'd be like, "Yeah, I love the kids, I want to be with them." I'm like, "What, you love the kids? You want to be with them? Where'd you just come from?" She's like, "Oh, mom's group." Like, "Oh, great, I want that." I sought it out, couldn't find it. And then Kim was just like, "Why don't you use our space on whatever day you want and do this thing?" I'm like, I don't really want to create this. I just kind of want to show up and do the thing.
Britta Bushnell: Famous last words for creators of space, by the way. I just want to highlight that for a second, Bobby, because the number of people I know who unintentionally become circle holders is really high. Because we are hungry for something —
Brandon Reynolds: I need it.
Bobby Brown: Yeah, yeah. And the yes to that really allowed me to — and in the moment the reason I said yes was this other thing, it was masked as I need this, right. And now we're seven years removed from the start of it, and yes, it's kind of like that moment I had in the car when we found out we were having a baby. Okay, I can think back now to what started it in that moment — and what started it was yes, everybody, this is needed. I saw a need, and I wanted to help. In the moment, the only thing that would make me say yes was the help I needed, but it turned out to be, yeah, this is something we can do now, to plant some seeds.
Britta Bushnell: I love that. And I also feel like it's an important message to share with the listeners, because a lot of times there are folks who are like, what's out there, what can I join? And sometimes it's actually starting it, and just saying, hey, are you a dad? What do you want to hang out and connect and talk? Setting an intention to make something happen that may be messy in the process — but so is being a parent. So it's not always looking outside ourselves for something. But if there's a dad listening to this who's hungry for community, what would you say to him?
Bobby Brown: Search for it. Honestly, there's a lot more. The menu — it's not quite Cheesecake Factory, but it's getting there, and I'm grateful for it. At first, there was a lot of times where this is the first time I'd ever heard, yeah, yeah, me too. But now there's many different things. I get to be on panels with some people who run amazing organizations now, and there's more of like specific niche type of groups, which I think is awesome. But yeah, search for it. Let your partner know you need it, so they could be on the lookout for it. I think when I first started this group, most men who came came from a resource that their partner had, right. Because there's not, you're not — yeah, I don't have flyers, and there's not word of mouth going on at the basketball court. It was really birth centers and things like that. And it would take a while for them to transition in, because your wife says, "Hey, go to this group." Yeah, good idea. But it became, one dad comes, he brings a friend, they bring two. Now cousins are coming, and it kind of became this thing. So women are very creative, right? They may find the thing, but not bring it to you so you don't reject it. They'll plant it, or leave a flyer, or send a little thing here and there so you come across it. So just make it known. Let the universe know you want this thing. It's going to show up. You'll either create it or you'll find it. But it needs to be an intentional thing. If you don't speak up — universe, like, cool, we don't need to do that.
Britta Bushnell: I love that. Yes, absolutely.
Birth: What It Meant to Becoming a Father
Britta Bushnell: So I want to pivot a little bit to talk about birth. I've been working in the field of birth for over 25 years, and I have found that a lot of people have a misnomer about the importance of a partner or a dad at birth. I would love to hear each of you talk a little bit about what mattered to you about birth — how did birth impact your journey of becoming a father? And I'm wondering, Brandon, if you could start with that one.
Brandon Reynolds: So I promise I'm not doing this just to flatter you, Britta, but the first thing I did think about was the Inanna journey in your childbirth course that I took, and I won't give it away for those who haven't taken it. But what stands out is the sense of — just, you're not — it's maybe just me, but the universe keeps sending me messages of, do you realize how not in control you are, even though you really want to be? And there were things we did in your class that helped me actually feel into that. Like, as you probably know — okay, I'm gonna have the — I've found seven different websites which have the hospital bag. I'm gonna compare them, figure out which actually is the thing you need. Then I'm gonna — like, whatever —
Britta Bushnell: How do I get it right? Yeah.
Brandon Reynolds: How do I get it right? We had worked with this doula for several months and had a wonderful experience and felt very connected, and we're like, okay, we really feel good about having this person in the birth room and really being with us and guiding. And my wife's birth was so quick that she delivered before the doula could get there. And I'm so grateful to say I was prepared for it. For me, it was just the coming-to-terms in the most sensorial, somatic way of this thing coming out into the world that I have all these dreams and hopes and ideas for, that I've never met. Which is like, okay, a new journey has begun. And that felt invigorating and exhausting, but also really important.
Britta Bushnell: So being there was really important for those moments of awareness to pop up for your fatherhood journey.
Brandon Reynolds: Yeah, to see how clear it was that my wife and the space that was being held was like — basically, we have the resilience to work through whatever comes. And that felt like the true teaching for me was like, it's not about the takeaway.
Yeah, it's about the resilience. It's not about, I've figured out the perfect spreadsheet to get the thing. It's like, when all of those things break, you're still okay. And fortunately, my wife and I — she took your course too — we had a trust and a communication that allowed for a sense of, like, whatever is going to happen, we can handle. And for me, as a parenting guide, that's kind of all I can hope for, really.
Britta Bushnell: Yeah. Because you kind of need that a little bit when you're then a parent.
Brandon Reynolds: You need it a little bit — just a little, just a wee bit — you need resilience for what do you do when it all breaks?
Britta Bushnell: Yeah.
Brandon Reynolds: When your plan goes —
Britta Bushnell: Yeah.
Brandon Reynolds: Yeah, that plan's great, but yeah.
Britta Bushnell: Thank you, that is great. Bobby, what has being involved in birth been like for you on your fatherhood journey?
Bobby Brown: Resilience is great. I never looked at it that way. Yes, there's one takeaway for you, Dad listening out there: be resilient. I think for me, honestly — look, all I knew about birth was hospital and doctor, and that's what we're doing, because that's what you do. Lucky for me, my mother-in-law is who she is. I got exposed to a whole new world, like when he goes into the Avatar land for the first time.
Britta Bushnell: That's a good analogy.
Bobby Brown: What do we got? What options do I have? The hospital — oh, if there's an emergency, that is where I go. All right, so let's not have an emergency, huh? So then it got into, how do we not have an emergency? And I think for me it was more of like — look, it was the one time, or the first time, that I realized I need to surrender. I am safest when I surrender my life to Black women, and I did that. And whatever my wife wanted to do, we're doing. She obviously had challenges with that. So now I'm like, I need to have input. I don't have your body. What do you want to experience? I am for that 110%. I knew my birth story a little bit. The classes we took — I really had to start — the first thing we did was like, what's your birth story? I was like, oh shit, I have no idea. Learn that. And I was like, oh, I'm not doing that. So it gave me another opportunity to not do that, and it became a very beautiful process. We did hypnosis, making a playlist — it's my first time looking at birth in this way, and it was a beautiful thing to have some control over, right? My wife's body was already changing uncontrollably, this thing's growing inside of her uncontrollably, you have to go get all these tests for you and this other person and all these things. But it was one thing you felt like you had control over — was the birth plan, right? And I think that's why it's so important. More so than if you actually succeed, I think it really gives you something that you feel like you can control. It's your first nesting opportunity for this thing, and making —
Britta Bushnell: Those decisions about how you want to move forward is, in many ways, the first act of parenthood — to say, what is it you want for your family. And it can be a real process of individuation if you're choosing to go a path that is kind of different than what you've been taught.
Brandon Reynolds: Yeah.
Britta Bushnell: And that can bring up a bunch of things to confront in yourself, even with that, like, wow, are we going to do this? Are we going to do that?
Bobby Brown: Yeah, it was an opportunity, because we did take a very alternative route — which now in the world I've created, it doesn't seem like the alternative route anymore, but —
Britta Bushnell: Did it when you first took that turn?
Bobby Brown: 1,000%. And frankly, it still is, right? I bring it up at work: hey, yeah, we had our first as a water birth at home. Like, what? And it's still a thing, right? But it gave me an opportunity to be educated, to speak about it. Because you would get those eyeballs, and I'm someone who's very transparent upfront. People: what are you doing? This is what we're doing. Why are you doing that? What do you mean, why? Why do you go to the hospital? Just talk about it. And I think it was just a beautiful thing. And then being there — they empowered me. Because I didn't realize how to be an advocate, or why being an advocate was important, or that I was looked at in that way. It's the first time I felt like a protector. And being able to stand in that — so I had to educate myself to an extent to be present. And to your point, yes, it is the first thing you're doing for your child — is creating this environment for them to come into. For the dad, nothing changes physically until baby is here. Our bodies aren't changing, it's a thought, right, until it actually happens. And I think it was a beautiful thing, which prepared me for the others, which were completely different, all of them. So that was the only home birth, that was the only birth we really had control over —
Britta Bushnell: The planning of it, right?
Bobby Brown: Correct. Where somebody wasn't just shooting it down right away or saying, no, you can't do that because of this reason. We had the option to want to do these things. The twins were high risk. We knew early on —
Britta Bushnell: That's a different kind of situation, for sure. Although it requires still a kind of thinking and preparing and educating. So even if you can't control those things, you can control the part of you that says, I need to become — you spoke about advocacy — I need to be educated enough to be able to advocate. Or I need to be educated enough to ask good questions.
Brandon Reynolds: Yep, yep.
Britta Bushnell: And be a part of that, which is a parenting skill.
Brandon Reynolds: Yeah, yeah, very much so.
Britta Bushnell: Because I mean, your oldest is how old, Bobby?
Bobby Brown: 13.
Britta Bushnell: Are you still advocating for them?
Brandon Reynolds: Yeah.
Britta Bushnell: Yeah. I mean, my kids are now grown-ups — they're full-on adults — and I try really hard to, you know, they don't need me to advocate anymore, and I actually have to sit on my advocacy hands more than good job, Mom, because I've been released of that job at this point. But until they know how to advocate for themselves, it's on you.
Brandon Reynolds: Yep.
Britta Bushnell: So the beginning of that, in the pregnancy build-up, is an important part of it. And I love that you were able to see that and notice that, and be like, oh, there's something — I may not be having physical body changes, but there's still stuff for me to do.
Brandon Reynolds: Yeah, yeah.
What Society Is Getting Wrong — and Right — About Preparing Dads
Britta Bushnell: What do you both think society is getting wrong, and what is society getting right about preparing dads for fatherhood, preparing men for fatherhood? I'm going to let whoever wants to pick that one pick it up.
Bobby Brown: Yeah, I'll chime in. I think from a macro standpoint, they're just not educating. And I think it's not even just fathers, but there's a lot of questioning — they don't want you to question things. Our healthcare system is what it is, and belief systems in this country are what they are, but there needs to be like a bipartisan birth group. And I hate to take it to that level, but that's really what it is — realizing, okay, in this room you are the decision maker, you are the CEO of this process. This is your thing first, for the woman. And then it's hard for me to talk about or think about this topic and not just think about the Black maternal health crisis, because —
Britta Bushnell: Let's talk about it, yeah.
Bobby Brown: They get that right, everything else gets right — everything else, everything else is right. And I think for us it really becomes the advocacy that is the biggest thing. We can save lives by understanding we have a voice in these rooms. Sure, there's knowledge you can learn about the actual science of pregnancy, but bigger than that is recognizing that you can protect and save lives, and it is within your rights to do so. And they don't educate us of those rights — which is nothing new in this country, it's just another right that you're not being educated about. But this one happens to be a trillion-dollar business.
Britta Bushnell: And a matter of life and death.
Bobby Brown: And a matter of life and death. Which they don't care about that part — it's a business transaction, whether you make it or you don't. A bigger one if you don't. So they really — in my mind, I think what they're getting wrong is really everything, when it comes down to not just fatherhood, but birth as a whole. So yeah, it's —
Britta Bushnell: It's a big, heavy topic. So is there anything that comes up for you that you think is like — what is happening well in preparing fathers?
Bobby Brown: I think there's a lot more organizations now that are doing that work, as well as this work. I think the work I do — to me, maybe it was a first step, but to me there's so much more to be done beyond what I'm doing. I'm literally opening the door and saying, hey, come on in, here's that, how are you? Boom, we're talking. To me, in my mind, it's a very simple thing that I do, compared to look at Charles Johnson at Four Kure for Moms and the work they're doing. They're out there, they're talking to Congress, they're getting bills passed, they are putting together workshops and bringing all these thought leaders together and all these organizers together to enhance what they're doing, add this to your curriculum, bring this to the forefront, and really doing an expansion of the real work, right? So to me it's like, hey, I'm a tool, use me to enhance the message that really needs to get enhanced — amplify through me, influence through me, whatever it is. But that's the work that, to me, needs to get louder. So I think a lot of those dollars can go towards stuff like that. That should be a national program that hospitals partner with and want to utilize. Things like that — I think we're heading in a direction where that could be a real thought. I feel like we're heading in a direction where he's at — he's on C's doorstep now. These are things that weren't able to be done, you couldn't even fathom 10 years ago. So it's getting there, but like everything that matters and has real change and a global impact, it takes time. And I think —
Britta Bushnell: Frustratingly slow.
Bobby Brown: Yeah.
Britta Bushnell: Yes. We gotta stay —
Bobby Brown: — hopeful.
Britta Bushnell: — hopeful. But it is frustratingly slow. And yeah, I mean, there have really been — as somebody who's been in the field for 25 years, more than 25 years now — it really does seem like there's some movement.
Brandon Reynolds: Yeah.
Britta Bushnell: And that movement helps me stay hopeful.
Brandon Reynolds: Yeah.
Britta Bushnell: Yeah. Brandon, what do you think is working well, and what are we getting wrong?
Brandon Reynolds: Well — Bobby, I'm thinking about the fact that you ran for office here in California. I'm like, any chance you're gonna do that where you're at now? Because it seems like you've got some good ideas, man. Not that you need another project, but just saying.
Bobby Brown: Appreciate it.
Brandon Reynolds: Closer to the political center, yeah. It has me think about a couple questions ago — you're talking about resources and reaching out — and I was very fortunate. One of the organizations — so let me say a couple things, but I want to second what Bobby said, and what I heard: men who are listening to this, fathers-to-be, when your wife or partner recommends something to you, do it. I would have saved a lot of suffering if, when my wife was like, "Hey, you should do this thing," I was like, "I'm doing it, I'm signing up today. I'm in it." I appreciate the, like, let me just leave this flyer at your doorstep. But I would have saved some suffering. So if anyone's listening and has a recommendation from their partner who's like, "Check out this thing," just save yourself the time and effort and just do it. That's probably the most important thing.
One of the organizations my wife mentioned was Postpartum Support International — which I know you referenced in one of your recent emails. That is an organization that I reached out to. I connected to a dad's coordinator there, and he held space. I shared an honest disclosure about what I was experiencing — mental health arisings — and he was very compassionate and open. I stayed in touch with him, and about a year later I saw something that they were looking for new dad coordinators. And what I learned was that Postpartum Support International had hundreds of support specialists for moms, and at the time had one for dads — which was the one guy that I talked to. And it was just kind of like — I mean, there should be thousands for moms, that speaks for itself — but just —
Britta Bushnell: It speaks to the discrepancy, and it was like —
Brandon Reynolds: 400-something to one. And the perinatal and postpartum depression stats — it's like, various numbers, but maybe one in five for moms, one in ten for dads. So maybe two to one. This was like 300-to-one. It was like, wow. Okay, so there are a lot of dads that are struggling who are not reaching out for support. And I think that's also changing, as Bobby said. I was just doing some research before this call, and when I became a dad four years ago, there was like, oh, there's Bobby and there's Britta, and there's like two other people. And now there's a lot more. And I think that's a good thing. Some of those will become things, and some of them won't, but there's more people talking about it. There's so much more than there was five years ago, and there's a lot more than there was 15 years ago. So that's encouraging to me.
Mental Health for Dads and the Mask of Masculinity
Britta Bushnell: Yeah, and I'm really grateful that you brought up mental health for dads, because I don't feel like that is talked about enough.
Brandon Reynolds: Yeah.
Britta Bushnell: And I think — yeah, one in ten is one statistic, and I wonder if that is actually under-representative because of a kind of cultural bias toward not sharing.
Bobby Brown: Oh, yeah, that's the honest people. One in ten output with honesty — we're suffering.
Britta Bushnell: I mean, that's — we're tongue-in-cheek giggling about it, but yes. Because there is the mask of masculinity that is like, oh, I don't have that, I'm not going to share that — or just a lack of acknowledgement of it. But it really is something that I would love to see continue to get cracked open. And I love that we started this conversation really talking about some of the emotional confrontations that fatherhood brought each of you to, that fatherhood put that in your face, and that you were open and curious and went for a path of growth with that. And it can also be really confronting and challenging and threatening to our mental health for dads too. And I love that you brought in PSI — Postpartum Support International — because there is support available, apparently.
Bobby Brown: Yeah, at the time it might have grown, but yeah.
Britta Bushnell: I hope so. Yeah. And it is important to get support, whether it's with an organization like that, or a good therapist, or a psychiatrist with actual meds, or even just getting support for whatever level of intensity of transition. And whether it's a PMAD, where it's actually diagnosed, or it's really like, this is hard and I need support and friendship and community — there's a full spectrum there, and help is available and needed. Oh, I'm really glad you brought that up.
What Would You Tell Your Pre-Dad Self?
Britta Bushnell: So as we come toward the end of our conversation, I want to make sure — I have a final question that I always ask, but I also want to ask one very specifically to you all as dads: if you could go back and tell yourself, your former self, prior to becoming a dad for the first time, something that you think you needed to hear — is there something that you would share to that pre-dad self that would have helped you?
Bobby Brown: I think, breathe. Breathe. Yeah. Because in that moment, in that process, I don't think I slowed down enough. So it would have been — slow down. I stopped meditating, I stopped writing, I stopped doing all the things that got me to be a person who was ready for that moment. So keep practicing the things — keep your rituals alive, and don't stop pouring into yourself. Keep self-care paramount, because if you lose it, it's gone for a while.
Britta Bushnell: Yeah. Thank you. What about for you, Brandon?
Brandon Reynolds: What's coming up — also listening to Bobby, I was listening to your question, and it kind of morphed. I had a first thought, second thought, third thought, and it kind of settled on — I think I would tell myself: Brandon, you're a wounded healer. And both of those words are important and interweave together.
How to Find Bobby and Brandon
Britta Bushnell: I love that. Yeah, to acknowledge yourself as a wounded healer. Okay, so before I do my final question, I'd love to — are there ways that people can learn more about you and your work? Do you have social media stuff or websites? Like, give us a sense of how we get to know you better, Bobby.
Bobby Brown: Yeah, Donuts with Dads on Instagram — that's honestly the most action you'll find me, most activity is going to be there. And donutswithdadsla@gmail.com if you want to send me an email. Those are the most effective ways to reach out.
Britta Bushnell: Love that. Great. Brandon, what about for you?
Brandon Reynolds: I have ideas for a website, but at the moment I have two Google Docs — one is describing the father-son work that I'm interested in and am starting to explore more, and another is for — we didn't talk about this today, but — a father blessing ceremony as a way to gather before the process of becoming a father, to gather with support. I've done that one a number of times, and I'm open to doing it if there's a listener who's like, "Wow, I could really use the benefit of talking about that." So I'll include those two Google Docs, and they have my contact in them.
Britta Bushnell: Okay, great. And I can put those in the show notes.
Brandon Reynolds: Sure, yeah.
Final Question: What Do You Want New Dads to Know?
Britta Bushnell: Thank you. That's wonderful. All right, so my final question is: what's one thing you feel passionately about that you want new or expectant parents to see, hear, feel, or know during this profound period of their lives? And for you guys, maybe make it specifically to new and expectant dads — what do you want them to see, hear, feel, or know during this profound period of their lives? I'm guessing there's a bunch, but just pick one. Brandon, can you go first on that one?
Brandon Reynolds: Yeah, I would just say: don't keep it all inside. Like, whatever you're experiencing, reach out to your friends. And if they can't hear it, reach out to new friends. And if they can't hear it, come to Donuts with Dads and look at PSI. Just don't keep it inside. Let it out, let it express, get the feelings out, get the emotions out — not to get rid of them, but to let them be heard by other dads. Because we're here for that.
Britta Bushnell: Thank you, Bobby.
Bobby Brown: I second that. But I will also add — because that is great — I think express the gratitude throughout. Recognize that with gratitude comes more to be grateful for. Even be louder with the gratitude on the harder days. And surrender to it.
Closing
Britta Bushnell: Beautiful. Thank you, Bobby. Thank you, Brandon. I feel like we could keep going — this could be a whole series. I really appreciate your heart and your wisdom and your sharing. And thank you, listeners, for sharing this time with us. If something shared today impacted, supported, or moved you, please share this episode with a friend. I produce this podcast myself, and your support makes it possible. To show a little love for the podcast and these conversations, please follow, rate, and review. If you'd like to continue the conversation, please join us on Instagram at Transformed by Birth. I look forward to being with you again on the next episode of Transformed by Birth. And now to close, let's gather what we want to take away from this episode with an inhale, and on my exhale, I'll blow out the candle. Until next time, bye, friends.
Unknown Speaker: Bye.
About Dr. Britta Bushnell
is a writer, teacher, storyteller, and mentor who blends her eclectic training, years of experience, and areas of study into a unique offering for individuals, couples, professionals, and groups. Britta is currently deep at work writing her forthcoming book, Transformed by Birth: Illuminating cultural ideals to enhance the experience of childbirth.