Preparing for the Fourth Trimester with Sarah Trott

Introduction and Welcome

Britta Bushnell: Hello folks, and welcome to Transformed by Birth, a podcast about the rite of passage of pregnancy, birth, and new parenthood. I'm your host, Britta Bushnell, author, mythologist, childbirth educator, and an all-around deep diver with a side of goofball, I'm so glad you're here today. We're talking about the postpartum period, so grab your comfy beverage of choice, or take us along for a walk, as we connect with the host of the fourth trimester podcast, Sarah Trott. Before we begin, we start the way we always do, by lighting a candle. If you want to join me, please do, or just take a breath as I light mine. Today's candle is for all of you in the tender period of postpartum. One of the things I love about doing this podcast is getting to have the conversations I wished I'd had when I was a new parent conversations that go deeper than quote sleep when the baby sleeps and actually address the profound transformation happening, and I love connecting with other podcasters who are doing something similar, but in their own way. My guest today is Sarah Trott, creator and host of the Fourth Trimester Podcast, Sarah started her show after realizing that many of the questions that she had about her own experience as a new parent were the same questions her postpartum doula, Esther, was having and asking about 30 years prior, that recognition that we're still struggling with the same things, still asking the same questions, still not getting the support we need, became the fuel for creating a resource she wished she she wished had existed. Sarah is passionate about helping parents find the resources and confidence they need on their parenting journey. As someone who also hosts the podcast in the perinatal space, I wanted to have Sarah on to talk not just about the fourth trimester, but about what it's like to listen to experts share their wisdom, what patterns she's noticed, and what has surprised her, and what she's learned from being in this unique position of asking questions and holding space for these conversations. Welcome, Sarah. I'm so glad we're doing this.

Sarah Trott: Thank you so much for that beautiful introduction, Britta. And I'm so excited to be here. It's so nice to close the loop and be back on your show.

Britta Bushnell: Yeah, I got to be on yours, and so now we're switching roles, which is so fun, and you, your How long has the Fourth Trimester podcast been going? It's been going for a while now.

Sarah Trott: It has. Yeah, I started podcasting kind of as an early podcaster, which I didn't realize at the time, so it's been about a decade, and it's just continued. It's been a lot of fun, and I think what it speaks to having an audience that's so engaged for so long is the fact that this topic is so rich that there are new parents every day coming up with the same sets of questions. The core things are on identity, like you just mentioned in your intro, as well as practical things as well, so there's so much to learn, and it's sort of.. it's one of those things where it's just impossible to know everything, and it's good to level set on that, actually, and like take a breath and say, okay, you can't listen to every podcast and read every book, but for people who do listen to shows like yours and mine, they are information seeking, and there are lots of good reasons for that, around like education and understanding your situation better, and self awareness, and so I'm just grateful for the work that you do. Thank you so much for your show. Oh,

The Questions That Keep Coming Back

Britta Bushnell: right back at you. So I'm curious, as somebody who has been, I mean, a decade in this space is quite a lot. I mean, in the podcast space, yeah, that's a long time. And so I'm curious, you've, you mentioned, and you shared in your bio that these questions that you and Esther have, have seen kind of circling around over and over again, what are some of those questions that you have been seeing kind of have a repetition or a longevity, maybe is what a better way of saying it.

Sarah Trott: Yeah, that's such a good question. Well, I have spoken to hundreds of perinatal professionals at this point, and I will, I think, what I'll do is I'll basically just structure our conversation around the sets of questions, or like the things that come up, but I would say the overall theme is really about preparing for the fourth trimester, preparing for birth, of course, as well as a big part of it, but then what happens after birth is often like this, this black box, like when you become pregnant for the first time, a lot of people, they just can't even see past the birth from an imagination standpoint, because there's so much focus on baby shower and the nursery and all the things that go along with having a healthy pregnancy and being supported through the birth and birth education, so a lot of people will put together, like, a birth plan. Great, I'm a huge supporter of it. We actually have a template, but we call it the birth intentions document, because not everything goes to plan, so we kind of pick on that word a little bit, but, but yeah, I think the umbrella theme is just, how do you prepare for the fourth trimester, because that's when you get to that point where you know people will say, like, well, nobody told me, how come nobody told me this thing, and it's like, well, maybe the signs were there, or maybe you learned a little bit, but I don't think it's possible to know everything, honestly, I agree,

Britta Bushnell: I mean, and I think we've talked about this before, but one of the things that that one of my teachers talks about is that you don't even have the ears to hear right when, when you're in the perinatal, when you're in the prenatal phase, and someone's talking to you about postpartum, sometimes it's like the why didn't anybody tell me is that they may actually have told you yet, but you don't have the ears, you haven't grown the ears to hear about what's on the other side, because you're in that, as you said, kind of looking toward birth and pregnancy, and that's so consuming in its own way, that we're like, oh, postpartum, that's on the other side, we'll get to that, right,

Sarah Trott: yeah, exactly right, and then you think, well, now I'm in it, and so a lot of the things that maybe you did hear make a lot more sense, like maybe you heard them, but they didn't really click about what people were even talking about, like, why would you bring this or that up? So, so, yeah, I think after talking with all of these, like, OBs and doulas and lactation consultants, midwives, like, you name it, it's just been interesting to hear lots of unique perspectives. Of course, I'm doing my own research as I go along. I'm a parent, too, right? And even though I'm past kind of the early little baby phase, certainly for my kids, like, I still benefit a lot from a lot of the work and methodologies and things that people are sharing as like general parenting tools. I mean, my podcast is called The Fourth Trimester and Beyond, and I think a lot of the things that we learn in those early, early years actually carry through, so it's like really valuable, kind of forever. But yeah, so I was thinking about this conversation, I pulled together a handful of some of the themes or takeaways that have been really valuable from all the discussions I've had with professionals. Where

Britta Bushnell: are you going to share some of these, because yeah, I want to, I want to just before you do really acknowledge the postpartum and beyond aspect that you just referred to, because I do think that that's an important thing. I mean, I've had people listening to my, my podcast and episodes where we're talking about postpartum or even talking about prenatal things, and there is still content that is relevant, because so much of what, what this transition period, prenatal birth, postpartum is, is like a consolidated time pressure valve period of time of life, like it's not separate from life, it's like amplified life, which, which means we can learn things that relate far beyond that acute period into that longevity period that comes, I mean, I'm still utilizing things that I learned during that period of my life, and my youngest is 23 years old, so it's.. it keeps going.

Sarah Trott: Yeah, yeah, I think there's something for everybody here.

Britta Bushnell: Yeah, I agree. So, okay, what are some things that you've gleaned from these experts, you know, hundreds of experts that you've gotten to speak with? What are the patterns you've noticed, or what are some of the things that are takeaways that are valuable for my listeners now to learn from you?

Redefining Productivity: Rest Is the Work

Sarah Trott: Yeah, for sure. Well, like I said, overall, across everything, I'll share the big theme is just like, how do you prepare to have a more resilient fourth trimester? How do you prepare yourself and your environment, emotionally, practically, socially, all of these things. And so, if you think from that lens, if you're listening to this podcast, you're light years ahead. Congratulations. Share it with a friend, share it with someone who's, who's in this phase, or supporting someone who's in this phase, but one of the things that continually comes up is, is a certain mindset shift around productivity, so around this is really about understanding that your maternity leave, whatever leave, whatever time off you have, while you have a new baby, this is not vacation time. This is not, like, you know, time to get your to-do list out and dust off, and be like, well, I'm not, if you're a full-time worker, I'm not at the office nine to five, so now's the time to like get all this stuff done, like actually that's kind of a myth, and I think what gets repeated over and over is the importance of really lowering your own bar on productivity, so like even when you are at your steady state before, like what happens after you have your baby is that there's so much change, like there's medical recovery that happens, hormonal shifts, sleep deprivation, huge identity change stuff that you'll be working through, and so the the main thing to focus on really is your recovery. So this is about making sure that you're treating recovery like a job, and actually the mindset shift here is like recovering and resting is productive, you are doing something useful for you, because you know lots of doctors and midwives have come on and said, you know, if you rush to do too much too soon, you push yourself, you can cause like all kinds of like anxiety for yourself, right, about missed expectations of things, which is just like doubly hard when you have a newborn and you're really tired, but physically speaking, you can also like slow down your recovery physically, so it could take longer, maybe than it should have if you just rested properly, or you can potentially reinjure yourself, so this is,

Britta Bushnell: I love this, and I love that the idea of actually kind of reconfiguring the definition of product of productivity. Your productivity is actually in the process of healing and recovery, that that is what it's like, what is it? What does it look like to put your focus on that as, as the measure, you know? If you need to measure anything, it's like, oh, how is my recovery going?

Sarah Trott: Yeah, exactly right. And then, if you're better recovered, then you're able, better able to support this new person in your life, and, and allowing other people to help you and support you, so that you can rest, is really important.

Britta Bushnell: Yeah, not always easy.

Sarah Trott: No, no, no, but it's, I mean, we'll continue as we continue the conversation, we'll talk about strategies for some of this as we go, but

[Recording briefly paused due to external noise — leaf blower outside Britta's window]

Britta Bushnell: Okay, all right. There we go. That was fun. Sorry about that. Okay, so Chris popping back in here, yeah. okay, so, so that piece about productivity, what are some of the other things that you can share about that you've gleaned from from all these experts and conversations?

Building Your Support Team Before Baby Arrives

Sarah Trott: Yes, so this is kind of a nice follow on from making sure you're prioritizing rest, which is figuring out what support you need, so that you can get that rest, and like what support you might need. So I always like, I don't want to be over prepared for the sake of it, but I always like knowing what my options are, and so doing that preparation, ideally beforehand, before you have your baby, it's like kind of the theme of this, if you can do this prep before baby's born, it's a lot easier than after your baby is home, because then I, of course, you know you're navigating how to feed and how to change and care, and these all these things that you're now juggling and. You don't, you don't have a lot of time to be like doing research on who can support you, so it's not a problem if you are already there and you're like, I'm thinking about it now, like you can still do it, maybe enlist a friend or family member who can help you with this, but, but ideally you can think beforehand of how to identify like a support team, if you want to think of it that way, of that, I just

Britta Bushnell: want to, I want to double tap and kind of highlight for the listeners what you just said about doing it as much preparation ahead of time, like in the pairing, in the, in the prenatal period, preparing that team, preparing the kind of support that is needed, because we don't have the bandwidth or even necessarily the the extra brain capacity because we're thinking about so many other things in the early postpartum period to like have that already handled is so important I love that yes

Sarah Trott: yeah exactly and there's also like this myth around independence and proving oneself that like you can do it all alone, that's not resilience, actually. You know, I think there's a lot of misleading stuff that people can see on social media or get ideas from friends or family members who maybe I don't know, you know, whatever it is, they're like, some sometimes you get exposed to toxic ideas or ideas that aren't necessarily supportive of what's best for you, but just know that it's okay to get help, it's great to accept it and ask for it, and, and really, when we talk about resilience in the fourth trimester, we're talking about, like, if a challenge comes up, you're better positioned to be able to handle it, like you have the tools and you have the support you need to handle something in the way that feels good to you, and so when it comes to support team specifically, I'm talking about people like knowing who a lactation consultant in your area is like having a phone number for someone, maybe you've even like looked them up and read about them, or you've met them and you know they're available, and just having that access to that person, so you're like, well, I know we already click, right, I know I have a great person who I can call if I need them, hopefully you don't, or maybe you just want that consultation, maybe you want that support, you want someone to hand hold you and like accelerate your education for a certain category, but it's, you know, you know, you have your OB, you get a pediatrician lined up, lactation therapist, certainly I want to mention Postpartum Support International, they are a great resource. They have an online site where they have free call and chat if you just want to anonymously talk to somebody. Isolation is for sure a contributor to postpartum anxiety and depression, and so, like, having someone to talk to is huge. So you don't have to, yeah, you know, they are, they

Britta Bushnell: are great, and, and a great resource for finding somebody in your area, and tools for uncovering, like, oh, it should this be concerning? Am I, should I be concerned about the things I'm feeling? They have a lot of resources,

Sarah Trott: yeah, and they have online parent support groups, they have all different kinds, it's not just mom group, dad group, they have like lots of different sub categories, so you can check those out. And a new parent group is actually something I also really recommend. I personally really benefited from joining a new mommy group, where we walked around and we had our babies and carriers, and so it combined, oh, you'll love this, Britta, it combined like walking in nature, socialization, but then also it was led by someone who shared mythology stories.

Britta Bushnell: I mean, is there a like, sign me up? Do I can I just bring a ball, a baby doll in a carrier and pretend? I mean, that sounds like my kind of walk, post-mortem walking group nature, I mean, it sounds like a ritual, yeah, postpartum ritual to, to get to do all those things together. Oh my god, I love that. Anybody out there who wants to do something like that? Yes, who maybe somebody is is continuing to do that in your neighborhood or mine, I don't know, oh

Sarah Trott: my gosh, yes, it'd be great for everybody, not just postpartum moms, I know, I really missed it, I really miss it after it ended, and then

[Brief pause while Sarah looks up a name]

Sarah Trott: okay, yeah, got it. Yeah, so if you are listening, and you want to join a group. Obviously, she works in the Bay Area, but her name is Riza Tanner. So, I'll just like mention her, because she was so lovely and such a good resource.

Finding Community: New Parent Groups and Walking Together

Britta Bushnell: Oh, sounds great. Yes, that I know of here in Los Angeles, there are a bunch of different places that have postpartum groups, and there are postpartum groups all over the place, whether it's a postpartum doula that's doing it, or a meetup, lots of meetups for just walking with with a baby. I also found postpartum, like yoga classes or exercise classes, were another place to meet people, but having that space where you're connecting in community with your baby is such a valuable tool to have around,

Sarah Trott: yeah, sometimes just being able to talk to people who are in the same life stage as you and compare notes, like, oh, this happened to me, I can't believe it, and they say, oh, if really that happened to me too, and just those kinds of interactions are really surprisingly extremely comforting and supporting, so yeah, yeah, I

Britta Bushnell: mean, I'll say that when I was early postpartum, I was seeking other people who had babies that were the age that mine was, or near about, and I went, like, I got, I was like, wait, there's got to be somebody in my town, there's got to be a group, and there were no groups, I couldn't find anything, so anytime I saw someone in town with a baby that was about my age, I would be like, do you know of any baby groups, do you know of any baby groups, do you know any baby groups, and eventually that's actually how I found a baby group in my town that was just an informal group of moms with their babies, and we stayed together basically until our kids went off to preschool.

Sarah Trott: Yeah,

Britta Bushnell: we would just meet at each other's homes, and our kids grew up together, and I mean, to this, to this day, my son is getting married this summer, and some of those babies are coming to his wedding, like that were in that baby group.

Sarah Trott: Oh, that's so nice. Yeah, these

Britta Bushnell: things have legs, and they, or they're seeds that plant and grow roots, and it's really, it can be really stabilizing to have others, even if, like, there were there were conversations in that baby group. I remember where I was like, "I, this, this is not what I want to be talking about, but it didn't matter.

Sarah Trott: Yeah, yeah, you were kind of just in it for the socialization and the break from the new normal, whatever that is, because it's never the same thing.

Britta Bushnell: Yeah, and just being together, yeah, and in it, yeah, yeah. Okay, what else have you got?

[Brief recording pause — Sarah's fan turned on and was switched off]

Reducing Cognitive Load: Outsourcing and the Help List

Sarah Trott: so, so, yeah, there's so much we could go through. It's kind of hard to boil it all down, honestly. But the next one is thinking about your early postpartum, in terms of like cognitive overload, and like, how can you, how can you operationalize some of the things in your life that may be easier before baby is here, but then, like, just, you know, once you have your baby, they kind of feel a lot harder, like thinking about meal prep and cooking simple things, right? Like getting your house cleaned, like thinking about things that you would normally do, but how could you potentially outsource those? Or, like, I don't know if you've ever had a friend say, "Hey, how can I help you? What can I do? And you're like, "Oh, thank you so much, but like, actually having a way to say if you're, if you're serious, I would love your help, and in fact, I'll share you on this, this, you know, shared document or spreadsheet, or just I have a paper list, or whatever it is, it doesn't have to be anything fancy, but like, here's a list of things that, if you want to sign up to do them in the handful of months after our baby's born, I would absolutely love that. So, you can think about what are the things that you do day to day that you would like, you could do them, like you could survive and like do everything yourself, but like again, put yourself in that mindset of like needing to rest and really relish in this experience of bonding, so like it probably would be good not to have to like walk your dog or pick up the groceries or you know clean the bathroom, maybe you get a cleaning service, maybe you splurge on that if it's not something you already do just for a handful of months, like think about what that could look like, and so when someone offers help you're like yes here's how,

Britta Bushnell: yeah, or even just. I'm can I come over and see the baby. Yes, can you stop by the grocery store on your way? Here are a couple of things I need, like giving, giving people a way to support us, can actually be really bonding and community building. Back to talking about kind of isolation and the feeling of being very alone is something that that happens a lot in the postpartum period, and having building real community often comes through shared support, like being able to say yes, help me, and that that is a really can be a very challenging thing to do to ask for help and support, and it can be so unbelievably valuable in ways we don't even understand, including building intimacy, so if somebody is cleaning your toilet, you better believe that they feel more intimate with you, and, and that intimacy has value.

Sarah Trott: Yeah,

Britta Bushnell: and both people feel it.

Sarah Trott: Yeah, there's a lot of positive psychology that's involved with, with giving and receiving help, and you don't. The other thing is like, you don't have to feel obliged to then like immediately repay the favor, like if someone does something for you, you can just say thank you, and trust that they, they were had their hearts on their sleeve, and they were genuine when they said, "Hey, I want to do something for you. So I think that's really great. You also don't have to say yes to help that you don't want, so like there are situations where maybe someone in your family or something just decides that they are going to come and live with you for some period of time, and that is what, how it's always been, and that's what they're going to do, and you know, if that's not, if that doesn't intuitively feel good to you when people suggest something like that, like you don't. This is your time. It is sacred. You do not have to feel obligated to that. So, talk with your partner if you have one, get the support you need, be work as a team, and you know there are other options. You could say that's not actually something that that's not the kind of support we actually would appreciate the most right now. Maybe they could contribute to helping hire a postpartum doula.

Britta Bushnell: Yeah,

Sarah Trott: right. Maybe that's something they could contribute to, like a fund, or maybe contribute to, like, maybe send you some body work, so you get a massage, have someone come to your house, do something that that feels right to you. I mean, it's possible that, like, wanting that that person to move into you and cook for you for a week is like just what the doctor ordered, and that's exactly what you want. Cool, but you know when you're because we're promoting getting the help so much, like you actually don't have to say yes if it's someone who's like I don't know, you think there's a chance of like judgment or anything that's like you just don't need any negativity during this

Britta Bushnell: listen, listen to those quiet inner voices that are saying, wait, I don't know, I don't know if that's going to be a good idea, because sometimes those inner voices are are helping us be aware of something we need to pay attention

Sarah Trott: to. Totally, yeah, I think Esther and I, my co-hosts on Fourth Trimester, we've spent whole episodes talking about, like, how to be a visitor to someone postpartum. Yes,

Britta Bushnell: that is a wonderful topic. Yeah, it's

Sarah Trott: a whole.. and it is.. it's like an episode's worth of content, but it's just.. I mean, it's just stuff like, you know, you don't expect, like, the quick summary would be, don't expect someone to entertain you if they've just had a baby. You come, you give service, you make it about them. It's not, it's not about you, and you know, only only give what's invited.

The Government Lady: Postpartum Doulas and the Value of Professional Support

Britta Bushnell: Yeah, it makes me think, my mom, when I was pregnant, she.. I had her read something, and I don't even remember what it was at the time, but it had a little blurb about the provided care from the government in, I think, it was Denmark or Sweden, I don't remember now, some Scandinavian country where the government actually provides somebody to come to your house and do some of the things that we think of as postpartum care, like a, like a postpartum doula would offer, and my mom got it in her head that this is this person was called the government lady, and so when I had my first, she showed up being like, I'm the government lady, I'm the government lady, the government here doesn't have a government lady, we don't, we don't get that here, but she was like, I'm your government lady, and so she, and that was just the kind of the. A shorthand of what she, it gave her an idea of what it would look, what it should look like.

Sarah Trott: Yeah, that's interesting. I love that. I like the way she said that. That's really sweet. Yeah, yeah. The nice thing about it, I like a professional, like a postpartum doula, is that they've done it so many times, they've seen so much, they have this rolodex of resources that they can call on if you need a specialist, they are non-medical providers, but they, but they can do a lot of practical things for you, and they're also

Britta Bushnell: not family, which comes loaded with its own set of whatevers, you know, and and it can be easier for some people to tell somebody they have hired what it is they want and need, rather than somebody who is family who is offering it for quote unquote free. Yeah, and so there's not, not that everybody can afford it. And I understand, I understand that, you know, I mean, I, I certainly wasn't paying a postpartum doula in my early postpartum, I didn't have the resources, I didn't, you know, I didn't even know about them either.

Sarah Trott: Yeah, I didn't either. I didn't either. I mean, this, and this is hence like I have a podcast. I like became obsessed with talking about it, because it's like, so it was like so world changing for me. I hired Esther, my doula, from the birth, and she just said, "Have you thought about afterwards? And I was like, "You know, my husband has some time off, I've got some time off, we're fine. She's like, "You might want to think about getting some support, and I was like, "Okay, yeah, you can come help me. And, like, thank my lucky stars I did, because it absolutely changed and transformed my experience to the point where I shout it from the rooftops, like I think that we could have been fine, right? Like everyone kind of figures it out, but well, you know,

Britta Bushnell: and some people suffer through it. Yeah,

Sarah Trott: they suffer through it, or like it's, you know, there are there, we don't have to go down that road, but like the vast majority of people will like figure it out, and so, but the point I'm making is that if what you can, what you are totally capable of doing is like part of the theme of this whole conversation is like when you do your preparation and you get the support you need, you're really raising the bar on your experience, like this doesn't need to be something where we're like wagon women on the trail surviving day by day, and like it's really rough, like it doesn't need to be like that, like it can be this totally elevated experience where you are tending to your own needs, you do have some awareness, either self awareness or someone like a professional will come and like help you be aware and like help you put words to what you're experiencing for the first time and process what you're going through, just so, so valuable.

Britta Bushnell: Yeah, yeah, I love that. And there's the with the postpartum doulas being able to offer the words of support, the the wisdom of helping unpack as well as real practical tools and supports, and as you said, they're rolodex of providers and services, and all the things that they know that somebody might need. I mean, it really is a just a phenomenal wealth of knowledge and expertise and support. Yeah,

Sarah Trott: it's so unique. Yep. So, okay, I can move on to like the next thing.

Britta Bushnell: Okay. Great. I mean, I do feel like you and I could talk about postpartum doulas, or government lady work, as my mom would call it, you know, and all the various things, yeah, but there's, yeah, there's so much, because there's, there's the emotional. I just, I love highlighting what it is you were just speaking about, because there's, there's not just the practicals, the practical support there, and the physical support, there is also this emotional support that is often under expressed or under misunderstood, and or not understood at all, as being part of it that can be so profound and necessary.

Sarah Trott: Yeah, yeah, and I think that people think of the word is postpartum. It's like, oh, it's depression and anxiety, which are very real. There's very high rates of that in the US, which, by the way, men get that too. But then kind of what you're saying is that there's this profound change, and actually on the positive side, taking time and giving space to honor it, to really recognize and honor it, and maybe document it in some way for yourself is beautiful, and, and maybe you need someone to help support you through that with giving you the time and space to do it. So, I agree.

Britta Bushnell: Love that. Okay, so you have more for us. What else? Results.

Sarah Trott: Okay, I love this.

Britta Bushnell: I feel like I'm unwrapping multiple Christmas presents. It's like the layers. Yeah, what's next? What's my next curtain?

Protecting Your Emotional Health: Pre-Booking Therapy and Staying Connected

Sarah Trott: Well, I think the next one is like a, like, kind of beautifully transitions from what we just talked about, because it's about protecting your emotional health and being proactive about it, so waiting until you're in, in this like place where you are like kind of feeling again, like I said, desperate earlier, like what if you're proactive about it, then at least you're giving yourself again the tools, the resilience that you might need to help yourself if you get into kind of a challenging situation, so I love the recommendation I've heard a couple of times from like perinatal psychologists, psychotherapists around like pre-booking some appointments, so maybe you already have a therapist who you love, you could talk to them and see if they'll talk to you like when you're postpartum, great. If not, again, ideally ahead of time, go find someone who you really like. I know someone like to say it's like dating, like you don't have to just hire the first therapist you talk to, like find someone who you really like and feel comfortable with, who you can just like say anything to. And then the idea of booking ahead of time is valuable for a few reasons. One is you can sometimes have to wait a really long time with people who are good to get on their schedule, so you want to pre-book it so that it's just there. You don't have to, like, if you actually really want to talk to someone urgently, you don't want to wait three months. So think about pre-booking an appointment for like maybe three four weeks in after you've had the baby, so it's just on your calendar, another reason

Britta Bushnell: a lot of folks will now do that virtually, and so if, if, if that's easier, so driving can sometimes, or childcare, or any of those things can sometimes be barriers to getting the help that we need, and now I mean, one of the kind of lasting benefits, I don't know, side effects of of our global pandemic is that a lot of people now know how to do things in a virtual way, and I have known a bunch of my clients who set up those, those meetings, those sessions, and they do it virtually, so that they don't have the barrier that they, because one of the things that I've noticed, and see, tell me if this has been something you've heard, is that making a lot of what a lot of this guidance is about removing the obstacles toward doing it, and and we put there's a lot of obstacles to doing things like whether it's hiring a lactation consultant, it's like when it, when you're in the throes of having trouble with nursing, that's not when you want to start having to look for somebody, you want it to just be at the ready to go, and so, like, remove obstacles to to doing the thing, and so sometimes even doing a virtual session can be valuable.

Sarah Trott: You took the words out of my mouth. Oh, sorry. No, I would. No, I love it. I love it. I think I strongly recommend doing virtual. You can go in person when you, when you're ready to get in the car, but your physical recovery would, would definitely.. I recommend your first 30-40 days at home, like based on all the conversations I've had, right from medical providers. They're like, if you can just stay home, which you know, like our US system isn't really set up for that, like you're going to have to go to certain appointments, and but like limit that as much as you can. So I love your point, that's perfect.

Britta Bushnell: Well, we're in a conversation, right? We're both passionate about these topics.

Sarah Trott: I well, I mean, this is why we click so well,

Britta Bushnell: yeah.

Sarah Trott: So, yeah, so anyway, lots of reasons why to pre-book, so it's there, even if you don't think that you are like having an anxiety disorder or anything like that, having someone to talk to about this profound transition to becoming a parent is so good. It's just so

Britta Bushnell: good.

Sarah Trott: Yeah, so that's another reason. Yeah, yeah. And then others, other things you can do for on on the theme of protecting your mental health, talk to your partner about, like, you can plan with them, if so, again, if you have a partner, plan with them to have like maybe semi regular check-ins. It doesn't have to be anything formal, but just ask them how they're doing, you know. Maintain a level of intimacy and co-appreciation throughout this time, because it is, it's going to be hard, like you. Can do as much prep as you want, but it's still going to be a lot of hard stuff that you're learning how to do, and so making sure that you're just hearing each other, and you know, maintaining intimacy, intimacy like in all senses, like you're like, you know, a touch on the shoulder when you're in the hallway. I appreciate that. Thank you so much. You know, these things really, really matter. So that's been something that's been emphasized to me like a number of times in conversation. So I thought I'd pass

Everyone in the Boat Is Getting Jostled: Relationships in Postpartum

Britta Bushnell: that along. Yeah, I love that. I think the importance of turning back to one another is really important, and it's, you know, there's a certain element of, of postpartum that is, is everybody is in the same boat, and it's, it's rocking on the seas of postpartum, and it can jostle all the occupants of the boat, the baby, the birthing parent, the partner, whoever is in that boat, is getting jostled there. They might not be experiencing the same thing in their bodies or in their nervous system or in their psyche, but you can guarantee they're all being jostled. Yeah, and there, though, the water underneath does not feel like a calm, placid lake. And rather than feeling like you're in the boat entirely by yourself, is there a way to acknowledge everybody is is navigating unfamiliar and often rough waters, like you're in it together,

Sarah Trott: yeah.

Britta Bushnell: Especially if one person is having an extra hard time, everybody's needs are not being met.

Sarah Trott: Yeah, exactly. And you don't want to, like, ignore one partner in favor of the other, necessarily, like sometimes it can become, become a little imbalanced, so yeah, I really love your, your boat analogy, I think that's really good. Well,

Britta Bushnell: it's because I mean, if, if there isn't a time in a relationship, I mean, all the statistics about success with relationships around the postpartum period point to the fact that everyone is on rough seas,

Sarah Trott: yeah, yeah, that's so true. And to that point, the Mayo Clinic has a really good online resource that we can link to in your show notes, if you like. I'll share it with you on signs for postpartum mood and anxiety disorders and the warning signs, which again, like speaking to prep, if you have a partner or friends and family who will be close to you, obviously professionals will know this stuff already, but they can review that and kind of look out for you, you know, if you're the one who's who's had the baby, because it's really hard to recognize it when you're in it, so again, another tool in the tool belt for protecting your emotional health.

Postpartum as Lifelong Learning: How a Decade of Conversations Has Shaped Parenting

Britta Bushnell: I love that. Oh, so have we come to you? The main part, are those the main things you wanted to share? Because I have other questions for you too. I mean,

Sarah Trott: yeah, like I mean, I could go on, I could definitely go on, but you feel free to ask your questions. This is whatever, whatever conversation, I

Britta Bushnell: mean, but I, I love kind of the there's a way in which this sort of is the cliff notes, so the bullet point list of the like nuggets of what matters so much, and I'm curious, like, how has we talked earlier about kind of the, that postpartum doesn't necessarily just isn't just, you know, six weeks, it's like there's there's a way in which at 20, my youngest is 23 I am still in a journey of, well, I don't feel like I am postpartum, but I am post birth, I am post giving birth. Yeah, so I'm curious, for you, when you've been having these conversations about the postpartum period for 10 years, and and you've been listening to these experts. How has what you've been learning impacted how you are parenting your children?

Sarah Trott: Oh gosh, I benefit so much from these conversations. Like I said, it's stuff that is valuable when you have really little babies and when you have older kids too, and I mean, I think for a lifetime, because a lot of the skills and mindset work that happens are around, like, we talk about resilience and preparedness, but learning nervous system regulation, right, that's that's a skill for everybody, that's something that you learn, like, you don't have. Be a parent to benefit, it's like lifelong kind of stuff. So I just really value, I learn every time, and I really value the people who come onto the program, because there's also unique perspectives that come up right on the same topic. You can hear lots of different versions of it, so I feel really lucky that I get to talk with so many really experienced and credentialed and wise people on the program.

Gaps in the Conversation: Women's Health, Policy, and the State of Care Deserts

Britta Bushnell: I love that. Do you think there are gaps in the conversation you're having? All these conversations, and some of them overlap, and some of them bring new perspectives, but would you say there are gaps that you wish more people were talking about?

Sarah Trott: I think a lot of the things that come up where I don't dive as deep into, but it's like obviously that this quiet hum that exists in a lot of the conversations is just around like the state of women's health in general, and this is pretty much like a US-centric kind of comment that I'm making, although I'm sure it's applicable in lots of places, but I think it's just like from a policy standpoint the recognition of the practicalities of what it takes to recover from having a baby, and then supporting women through that afterwards, whether it be in the workplace or kind of like at home, like there's no government lady, right? To your mom's point, right? I think there's just.. I think there's a lot more that we could be doing as a country and as a society, and certainly from a business standpoint to help support parents to help support all parents to have a more supported and well-resourced fourth trimester.

Britta Bushnell: Yeah, well, and a lot of research is pointing to like countries in the world where there is more support in that fourth trimester or in the postpartum period, that some of their rates of PMADs, or perinatal mood and anxiety disorders, are lower, and so there's a way in which some that having good support can be protective, it's not going to remove everything, but, but it can be a protective source, because there's, there's clearly, you know, when, when we don't feel held, when we don't feel cared for and supported, it makes things that are hard harder.

Sarah Trott: Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of evidence around that too. I've had conversations with people who work in early childhood development around bonding and the way the brain develops, and so if you have a mom or a parent who is just so stressed and so unsupported that she can't take the time to like do the basic serve and return stuff, and bonding with her infant. The infant actually suffers, the brain development suffers, so it becomes these cycles of like generational stress or generational disconnection and disorder. So it's very real, you know. In the United States, right now, the March of Dimes came out with reporting recently that, like, around a third of the counties in the United States don't have postnatal care, so there's no, there's no hospital, there's no place to go and give birth, there's no OB-GYN available, so people are either going without, or they're, or they're driving really far and potentially having a baby in a car unintentionally, right. So, there's just like a lack of, there's, and that's kind of also just like a business problem, like hospitals or businesses in this country. And so, if they're not getting reimbursed by the government enough to support that birth in their hospital, they shut down the maternity ward. So, you know, and then,

Britta Bushnell: and then the families suffer, yeah. So there really is an issue in, in the system, not, not that, that sometimes parents and moms, in particular, then feel like it's, it's a fit, they're, they're having a failure rather than it really being a breakdown in the system that is failing them, yeah. I

Sarah Trott: mean, if the infrastructure isn't there, it's, you know, what are you going to do? So, but I mean, birth centers are amazing, and home birth can also be a really successful choice for, like, low, low-risk births, right? I've heard that said many, many times, but then you have to have access to the professionals who can accommodate that, which is like another piece of that puzzle. So,

Britta Bushnell: right, and not all, not all states have have a system that supports that either.

Sarah Trott: I think there's something like 400 birth centers in the US, you know. No wonder it's. Like, what is it? A couple percent of total births, like 98% of births are hospital births today. But I don't know. Let's see what happens. They keep shutting down. Yeah,

Britta Bushnell: let's, let's see what happens. I've definitely been somebody who has been supporting a lot of birth center work, and, and trying to help build, you know, through money and support, and sending books and things of that sort to try and help, like let's get some more freestanding birth centers where in some of these care deserts, yeah, because they can, they can help, yeah, yeah. So, as we start to wrap up, I have a couple of questions that are, I still want to make sure we get to. Is there, is there a piece of wisdom, and there's probably many, but is there one that rises to the top right now, where that you're like, ooh, I really am right now remembering this piece of wisdom from a guest, like it's stuck with you in some way. Do you have one that you want to share?

Wisdom That Sticks: Self-Trust as the Foundation

Sarah Trott: Yeah, yeah, I like that. It's hard to pick a favorite.

Britta Bushnell: Oh, of course, there's so many, but which one's bubbling to the surface in this moment?

Sarah Trott: Self-trust is incredibly important. It's an important topic for everyone, for all humans, and it really comes to the fore as someone becomes a parent, because you're not only thinking about yourself now, you're thinking about protecting someone else in a new kind of way, and so I think what happens is that there can be a lot of, a lot of seeking of like silver bullet answers, or or like absolute 100% kinds of answers, and it's just not black and white, and sometimes what happens is that you can end up being inundated with information and opinions, but it really comes down to aligning, aligning with what the evidence says, aligning with, and that could be kind of generic, aligning with what your medical provider says, which is specific to you, and then the third piece of that triangle is you, like don't forget to listen to yourself, like you. I think even in this conversation we talked about like listening to that inner voice a couple times, so I would just leave us with that as a thought, that don't forget to listen to yourself and build that skill.

Where to Find Sarah and the Fourth Trimester Podcast

Britta Bushnell: Good one. So, where can people find, like, tell us about the podcast, where they can find it? Where, what are your social media? What are the things you have available for everybody who's listening?

Sarah Trott: Thank you. Our website is Fourth Trimester Podcast.com so it's fourth F O U R T H, spelled out, so Fourth Trimester Podcast, and there you get links to where you can listen. We're on Apple and Spotify, and everywhere else that you can listen to podcasts, so we're there, we're everywhere you can find us under that same name. And then, if you go to our site, we actually do have like a free PDF you can download for postpartum planning, so

Britta Bushnell: I love that.

Sarah Trott: So it has a lot of the tools I talked about, and a whole lot more, because we don't have time to talk about everything, but I just thought I'd mention that, because it's it's a way for us to help pass along all of the wisdom that's been shared with

Britta Bushnell: us. I love that, and so important. Great. And then you are, you on your own social media, aren't you? I'm like, I think I see you. Oh, we

Sarah Trott: are. Yes, thank you. We're on Instagram. Yep, fourth trimester podcast. Okay,

Britta Bushnell: I'm like, I think I follow you. I think I see your stuff. Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Yep, we'll share that link as well in your notes for you. Great. Okay, wonderful. And so my last question, I like to end with the same question every time, and that's what's one thing you feel passionate about that you want new or expectant parents to see, hear, feel, or know about this profound period of their lives, that you are enough, you're

Sarah Trott: enough just the way you are.

Britta Bushnell: I love that simple and beautiful love that. Thank you, Sarah. And thank you, listeners, for sharing this time with us. If something shared today impacted, supported, or moved you, please share this episode with a friend. I produce this podcast myself, and your support makes it possible to show a little love for the podcast and these conversations. Please follow, rate, and review if you'd like to continue the conversation. Please join us on Instagram at Transformed by Birth. I look forward to being with you again on the next episode of Transformed by Birth. Now let's gather what we want to take away from this episode and share in Sarah's wisdom. Let's breathe it in on an inhale, and with our exhale, I'll blow out the candle. Until next time, bye, friends.

Sarah Trott: Bye.