Helping Grandparents Support New Parents with DeeDee Moore

Introduction and Welcome

Britta: Hello folks, and welcome to Transformed by Birth, a podcast about the rite of passage of pregnancy, birth, and new parenthood. I'm your host, Britta Bushnell, author, mythologist, childbirth educator, and an all-around deep diver with a side of goofball. I'm so glad you're here today. We're talking about grandparents, so grab your comfy beverage of choice. I've got a matcha latte today, or take us along for a walk as we connect with Grandparent Specialist Dee Dee Moore. Before we begin, we start the way we always do, by lighting a candle. If you want to join me, please do, or just take a breath as I light mine. Today's candle is in honor of grandparents. It's often said that when a baby is born, so too is a mother, or so too is a parent, and for many families, so too is a grandparent. When my grandson was born, I was there, and I was busy. I wrote about it in a past newsletter that I felt like that character in the children's book, Hats for Sale. Hats for sale — I don't know if you know the one where he sits under a tree, he's got lots of hats on his head. Well, I was wearing so many hats at the birth of my grandson. After things slowed down, the midwife, who I know really well, turned to me and said, Congratulations, Grandma, and I burst into tears, that was my moment. I was altered forever, but my transformation into Bibi, which is my grandma name, in case you're wondering, has evolved a lot over the last two plus years, and it has been a transformation. Now, with the arrival of my second grandbaby, it feels only fitting to talk about that transformation, the one happening up a generation in the person who finds themselves in a brand new role with their own hopes, fears, and longing to belong to this new family as it takes shape. Today's guest, Dee Dee Moore, has built her work around exactly this threshold. She's the founder of More Than Grand, a resource hub dedicated to helping new grandparents become the village that new parents actually need, and that word village is one that I think about and talk about a lot, because we are living in a cultural moment that has largely dismantled the village, and then wonders why new parents are drowning and struggling so much. Dee Dee's work is about rebuilding it, not by handing parents a list of rules, but by opening up a different kind of conversation, one that asks grandparents what they are hoping for, what role they long to play, and how the whole family can move through this transition with more understanding and less friction. This is a conversation for expectant and new parents, yes, but also for the grandparents in your life, and for any perinatal professional who knows that birth doesn't just transform the parents, it ripples outward, touching everyone who loves them. Welcome, Dee Dee. I'm so glad you're here.

How Dee Dee Found Her Way to This Work

Moore: Oh, thank you so much. It is so — I just love talking to new and expectant parents about how to handle that transition as their parents take on a new role.

Britta: Yeah, and I, in my years of working with new families, it's a topic that comes up a lot.

Moore: Yes, it is. It is. Just spend 10 minutes on Reddit, and you will know.

Britta: Okay. So then let's start. How did you end up in this work? Like, what brought you to this topic? Was there a moment or an experience that made you go boom, wow, we need this.

Moore: You know, it started off with a blog. I started a blog because I was casting around for something to do after I stopped working as a communications consultant. I started a blog about grandparenting because I couldn't find a website that really addressed how to make that transition and how to support parents. There wasn't a grandparenting site that really talked about grandparenting itself. So I started this blog, and I did. I spent a lot of time on Reddit, I spent a lot of time on Grands Net, which is a listserv in the UK for grandparents, and I looked at what they were talking about to get ideas of things to write about for this blog, and what I saw really quickly was that the things that parents were talking about in regards to grandparents, and the things that grandparents were talking about in regards to parents, it was clear they just weren't communicating with each other, you know, the message was not getting across that barrier in their personal life, and I thought, well, this would be really helpful if I wrote to grandparents about the things parents wanted them to know, but either were afraid to ask, or grandparents discounted because they were coming from their kids instead of, you know, some sort of authority figure that could really fill a gap. And so I started — that's what I started doing. Started this blog. It quickly became apparent that I needed to have some way to turn this into a business, because I was spending a lot of money, you know, creating all these resources, and I went to a conference, and I was — I was so afraid to tell all these younger people, first of all, I was afraid that I was going to be the oldest one there, second of all, I was so sure that when I talked about what I did, people were gonna, you know, their eyes were gonna glaze over, and they were gonna go find somebody else to talk to about something more meaningful.

Britta: I bet that —

Moore: — every single person I talked to was just lit up, like, oh my gosh, I wish you had been around when I had my babies, or oh my gosh, I'm gonna tell my mom about this right away, and that gave me the confidence I needed to really push and try to get the word out even further.

Bridging the Gap: What Grandparents and Parents Most Need to Hear

Britta: I love that. So, what have you found that people want to learn, like, what is it that is inside that gap of communication? Like, how did you help bridge that?

Moore: One of the big things is just the patterns that we bring. We are the parent, this is our child, right? We have years and years and years of guiding them, of being the authority, of being the one who fixes things. We have decades of that. Sometimes, by the time our child has a baby —

Britta: Yeah —

Moore: — that's a hard habit to break. And parents, on the other hand, don't necessarily understand how hard that habit is to break. So what they do is put up boundaries and rules in an attempt to create the space they need to have the authority over their child, and that's not always the best way to forge a new relationship, because this is a new relationship. When you become a grandparent, you have a whole new relationship with your adult child. That's something that you need to learn to navigate.

Britta: I mean, both parties need to learn to navigate it, right? Absolutely, because now the grandparents are parents to parents —

Moore: Right, which is a new —

Britta: Kind of relationship, and then —

Moore: Absolutely —

Britta: That child is now a parent —

Moore: Right. And —

Britta: So that's a whole new thing —

Moore: Right.

Britta: So everybody is shifting. I talk — and I showed you my image in my book just before we hit record — but I often talk about the turning of the family wheel, that we spend all this time in our lives in the seat of the child, and then we become a parent, and suddenly we're at the apex, and we're the parent, and our parents get kind of bumped off to the side of the circle in the seat of the grandparent, but we don't know how to be in those seats.

Moore: Yeah, exactly, exactly, and so a lot of what I do — because I used to work as a communications consultant — the bottom line is, it's all about communication, it's all about having those conversations early on, so that you can get ahead of what everybody's expectations are. You know, what, as a new or expectant parent, one of the best things you can do is go to the prospective grandparents and say, what kind of grandparent did you have? What kind of grandparent do you want to be, and find out what their expectations are, find out what their hopes are, and then you know what you're dealing with. You know that they want to be the one that takes them out for ice cream every Thursday. Well, you know, we're really going to try to avoid that sort of diet. So, let's figure out something else that you could do that could be a weekly ritual, you know. Get ahead of those things, and, and obviously, you're not going to be able to predict everything that's going to happen, but what you're doing is establishing that you want to communicate, that you want to take the other person's viewpoint into account, and open room to acknowledge that they too have a role in this family and that it's an important one. There's a ton of research on how much having a strong grandparent relationship does for a child, for their mental health, for their success in school. It's a very, very valuable role. As a parent, there are times when you just can't provide what your child needs, and having another trusted adult in their life is going to be wonderful for all of you.

Britta: I mean, I'm feeling tears prick in my eyes because I'm in kind of new grandparent mode. I mean, my goddaughter, who's like a bonus daughter for me — I have a two and a half year old grandson and a new baby, and getting to spend time with them, and not just with them, but being able to be that additional resource, that additional adult resource for them, but also for my goddaughter —

Moore: Yeah —

Britta: Like, and her family is —

Moore: Absolutely —

Britta: The way that that two and a half year old looks at me. Oh my gosh, Dee Dee, I mean, it just melts my entire heart. And I had no idea leading up to this that grandparenting would be like that. I didn't —

The Generational Shift: When Grandparents' Knowledge Feels Irrelevant

Moore: And that's, you know, there you go, that's exactly it. We don't know what we're walking into. We all think, as grandparents, that we have the skills and the wisdom and the knowledge to do this well, but we've never been a grandparent before. We don't actually know what that role entails. It's not just a repeat of parenting. I mean, you can know everything in the world about babies, but you don't know this baby, you don't know this child, and today's parenting landscape is vastly different from the landscape of the past, and that's another thing parents don't realize. You know, parents today are getting their information from a thousand sources. They've got, you know, weekly emails on how their baby's developing, they've got Facebook groups, they've got Instagram accounts they follow, hopefully childbirth —

Britta: Education. I'm just going to put that out there. Absolutely, plug that for a second.

Moore: Absolutely. I mean, that's — there are so many things. When I was a parent, I had one book, I had Parents Magazine, I had my pediatrician, and I had my mom, and that was the usual, you know, library of sources that a new parent had.

Britta: Similar, you know, I don't think you and I are that different in age, so similar. Yeah.

Moore: Exactly. So this is a big shift for grandparents today, because suddenly our knowledge is not relevant to today's parents, and a lot of parents do not want any advice from the grandparents, and it's understandable — they're getting so much already, they don't need another source of somebody giving them tips that they didn't ask for. So that's — it's so hard to —

Britta: Speak to it, I know parents —

Moore: Need to understand how hard that is, because it's a huge generational shift. I mean, this is the first generation ever that has really not looked to their elders for advice on how to raise a child. That's never happened in the history of humanity.

Britta: On occasion, I'll get asked —

Moore: Well, exactly, but most of the —

Britta: Time I have to sit on my hands, Dee Dee, do I —

Moore: I just wrote a blog post on why it's so hard to bite your tongue, because it is what you need to do, but it's hard because that's not the role you've played in all these years of your child's life. So, you know, I implore parents to take that into consideration when the grandparent cannot bite their tongue and comes out with some advice, to take it kindly. You don't have to follow the advice, obviously, but recognize that it comes from a place of love and it comes from a place of caring, and it's not a desire to control what you're doing, it's because they want to be involved and relevant.

Britta: Yeah, and what do you say to the grandparents? Because that's what you say to the parents. So, what do you say to the grandparents?

Moore: Bite your tongue. Yeah, yeah, recognize that your adult children are getting so much advice from so many places, and they have decided which sources of information they want to follow, whether that is, you know, their pediatrician, whether that's some, you know, a doula, or somebody who is in their circle. It may be you — you may be one of the lucky grandparents who is looked to, and they're still, you know, they're definitely still families where that's true, but it is not the absolute norm. So, yes, as a grandparent, you have to respect what your children are doing as parents.

Grandparenting Begins Before the Baby Arrives

Britta: Yeah. Oh, and yet it's tricky. One of the things that I hear frequently from clients is the kind of inserting themselves aspect in grandparents, the — I'm coming, you're having your baby in August, I'll be there in August — but they didn't maybe get an invitation —

Moore: Right —

Britta: And then the parents are in the place of how do I deal with this, what do I do? So —

Moore: Exactly, talk —

Britta: Because, yes, grandparenting starts before the baby comes —

Moore: It does. As soon as you get sent that ultrasound picture, you are now a grandparent, and now is the time that you prepare, and now you start shifting your thinking: what do parents want, not what I want? What do parents want?

Britta: That's the other side of the family wheel. You've been booted, you've fallen —

Moore: Down off the apex and you're sliding down that hill, so —

Britta: What do the parents want? That's the mantra.

Moore: What do the parents want, and that's why it's so important as a prospective grandparent to come to parents with these questions, like: What sort of support do you want during or after the birth? Do you want me to be involved? When can I visit? How can I support you? Can I set up a meal train for you? Can I bring you dinner? Can I come stock the freezer ahead of time? What can I do to help support you, so that parents know that's what you want to do, and it gives parents the opportunity to say, well, we really want to respect our time together as a threesome, so we don't want any visitors for the first two weeks, so if you could come after that, that would be great. Jeff's mom is planning to come on these dates. If you want to try to come at the same time, that's fine. If you want some of your alone time, you could come after her or before her. Just get those conversations out there. And grandparents do a huge favor to parents if they're the ones who bring up those topics.

Britta: Okay. I love that. So the grandparents bringing up those topics, and I noticed that you listed off some options of how the grandparent might show up. Is that something that you recommend, like actually giving possibilities rather than open-ended —

Moore: It depends on your relationship with your adult child, obviously. You know, I have one daughter who absolutely cannot make up her mind about anything, right? She just — that's just her. She's always been slow to figure things out. So, for her, I would have a very strict list of here are the six things I can do. Do you want me to do any or all of them? Because another one of my daughters, who always knows what she wants, I would be able to go to her and say, you know, how can I help you? What'll work for you? She wouldn't need that list, because she would have already figured it out, right. So, knowing your adult child and knowing how they and their partner work is very, very helpful. If you don't know their partner very well, now's the time to work on that relationship, right? I'm sure you have encountered this too, but that mother-in-law, daughter-in-law dynamic can be really, really hard, and it only gets harder when the baby comes. So now is the time to get to know her, to make it clear that you want her to be an important part of your life, and really —

Navigating the Mother-in-Law and Daughter-in-Law Dynamic

Britta: I've just become a mother-in-law to a daughter-in-law. My son just got married, and it's a different kind of relationship than with my goddaughter's husband, because he's kind of like, whatever, you do whatever you want, come on in. Yeah. Oh, Britta is here. Okay. Yep, right. I'm out, you know. I'm good, right? This means I get to golf more — great. It's very —

Moore: Different, yeah. It's easy. And that's typically true with the son-in-law. Not always — there are definitely some difficult ones out there, but the mother-in-law, daughter-in-law relationship can be really hard, so that's something to work on, and you know, to the daughters-in-law out there who haven't found their footing with their mothers-in-law, the same goes for you. Let's work on it now, figure out some common ground, try to get to know her better, and to make her understand that you do want her to be a part of your baby's life.

Britta: Yeah, one of the things that I've seen since we're talking about mothers-in-law and daughters-in-law, one of the things that I've seen that has been tricky for some couples is when a son has a really bonded relationship to his mother and kind of processes aspects of parenthood with his mother and then comes back into his relationship with his partner with the, you know, wisdom — I'm putting it in air quotes, right? — um, sometimes it is, sometimes it is, but comes in — well, mom says — and that can add to that tricky relationship.

Moore: Yes, there is a fabulous book that came out last year called You, Your Husband, and His Mother, and I just — go read it now. If you don't have a great relationship with your mother-in-law already, get the book, read the book, and it will help.

Britta: Okay. Good. I've seen that. Yeah, no, I read — I have it, but I haven't read it yet. Yeah.

Moore: It's well worth reading, and it also has a whole section on how to be a good mother-in-law, so it's definitely worth reading.

Britta: Yeah, so you are validating, though, that that can be a tricky relationship that can cause some angst. I often will say that once, especially once a baby comes into the world, the primary relationship for that son, husband is with his partner.

Moore: Yes, yes —

Britta: But that can be so hard for the grandmas who are still trying to hold on, right —

Moore: It is hard, and that's a dynamic that really, honestly, you probably need a therapist to get in there to really help, you know. Advice for me can only go so far.

Britta: Right. You know, but I bet you still have some advice, even.

Moore: Exactly. Yeah, and you know, there's another dynamic that happens a lot when a new baby arrives and mom comes to help, the birthing parent's mother comes to help and becomes the co-parent for this baby —

Britta: Right —

Moore: Kind of takes over, and the partner is pushed to the sidelines, as you know, Mom — just Grandma comes and takes over, and that is an important one for grandparents to watch out for, because it's so important that the parents figure things out together, that is crucial.

Britta: Yeah, even if it means some struggle, because that struggle is a struggle they do together.

Moore: Yes, yes, and that's the important part. That is the important part.

Britta: It will — bonding —

Moore: As parents —

Britta: Bonding as parents. This is a good one for me to remember, because I'm a professional in this field. Yes —

Moore: Absolutely.

Britta: And so I'm like — newborns, I gotcha, exactly —

Moore: Exactly. Well, and I'm sure that you know they appreciate that completely, but it is good for you to remember to, like, hey, you guys, the baby's crying, but I've got — I'm gonna go take a walk —

Britta: Yeah —

Moore: I'm gonna go take the two-year-old to the park for the rest of the afternoon, and you guys are gonna —

Britta: You got this —

Moore: Fine —

Britta: Yeah —

Moore: You got this —

Britta: Yeah —

Moore: You got this, and that actually is one of the important things a grandparent can do, is instill that confidence in new parents, because you don't know what you're doing. I mean, I don't care how much you have prepared, that baby arrives, and every single thing is a chance to doubt yourself — everything you do, every decision you make is a chance to wonder, am I doing this right, am I messing them up, is this gonna, you know, affect everything down the stream. If a grandparent can come in and say, you've got this, you're doing great — like, I'm so impressed with how much patience you have, or whatever — that is huge for a new parent.

Making Food and Validating New Parents — What Help Really Looks Like

Britta: Oh yeah, I mean, I can remember my mom doing that with me, where, you know, here I was a newborn mom, trying to figure it out, and she was there for a couple of days after I first gave birth to my first — actually, with both of mine, she was — but I knew that she could do some things and be helpful, and I was grateful for that, but really, what I wanted her to do was make us food and be helpful in the house. Yes, and validate my badassery as a mom.

Moore: Exactly, exactly.

Britta: Really, what I wanted — I wanted — even though I didn't necessarily feel like a badass as a new mom, I wanted the validation that I was right, that I was doing okay. So, the idea — I recently saw a show — that Margot's Got Money Troubles, where the grandma in this is like, you got this, and then drives away, and it wasn't — it wasn't like I wanted my mom saying you got this and I'm out, I wanted her there and helping —

Moore: Yeah —

Britta: But I wanted her to say you got this —

Moore: Right, right. You know what you're doing, you are a great mother, here's dinner —

Britta: Yes —

Moore: Have you had — let me refill your water for you. Here are some snacks to get you through the night. I got the laundry done. Did you want me to put it away? I know that you've been trying to get around to hemming those curtains, and I have an extra — can I do that for you? It just — all of those little things are what really just show your adult child that you're still there to love and support them, right?

Britta: I love that. It makes me think of one of my favorite phrases that I think is really helpful in pretty much all relationships, but I think with parents and grandparents, for sure, it's a strong one, which is: how can I help. It comes back — you were talking about, you know, the list, or just how can I help — but really putting the locus of control in the hands of the parent rather than the grandparent.

Moore: Right, right, and one thing I know for new parents, it can be really hard in the moment to come up with that. So I always recommend to new parents and to expectant parents, start making a list now. What are the things that you do every day that somebody else could do? Watering plants, you know, raking the yard, walking the dog, doing the dishes — all of those things. What could somebody else come in and do for you after you've given birth? That you can just have a list for grandparents, and when they say, "What can I do to help?" you can say, "Go look at the list, right? There's a list on the refrigerator, and see what's on there that you could do."

When Grandparents Don't Show Up the Way You Need

Britta: So I'm loving all of this, and I'm also hearing in the back of my mind that some of the parents that I've worked with who have a different relationship —

Moore: To —

Britta: Their parents, who are like, you know, my mom's gonna come in, sit down, ask for the baby to be placed in her arms, then removed from her arms, and she's gonna leave — like, not that that parent is not there to be of support, but really wants to just have their grandparent moment. Which might just be true. Yeah, and what — very hard. Yeah —

Moore: That's very hard. And that's where again that conversation ahead of time can help. If you can start a conversation about what being a grandparent means to your parents, what does that mean to you — and part of it is like, if you know in advance that that's all they're going to do, you can begin to come to terms with it. You can't change somebody. You can certainly say, I would really appreciate it if you also took this active role in either supporting me or, you know, being there for the child. Being able to express that in a non-combative environment ahead of time, when it's not an issue, can go a long way. But sometimes you just have to accept that you're not getting the grandparents that you want for your child, and there are other avenues to find that support. That's when you need to realize, okay, I'm going to have to find my village somewhere else. How can I start building that? And there are ways to do that. I know I was a military wife, so we never lived near the grandparents, and we relied on, you know, the parents next door. We had a babysitting circle where everybody took turns watching each other's kids. I know today parents are a lot more anxious about letting someone else watch their children than we were in the '80s and '90s, but make those connections, work on finding people that you can trust. There is nothing better than having another mom that you can call and say, can you pick them up from preschool today? Because I am running late at a meeting, or I am down with the flu. Being able to find that person in your community can be a lifesaver.

Britta: Yeah, and I think that building a village and community is so important for new families. That's just — we weren't meant to do this in isolation.

Moore: No —

Britta: And I do. I love that you also said, though, that there's — when you don't get the grandparents for your children that you want, that there is a coming to terms with that. Yeah, that it might be a process of grieving —

Moore: Yeah, yeah, just as grandparents sometimes grieve because they're not allowed to play the role they want to, right? Whenever there's a relationship, it's between two people and it's got to be negotiated, so there can be grief on both sides, and it's something that we have to work through, either with the help of a professional, or our partner, or our best friend on those walks, on the 6am when you're solving the world's problems. But it is something that you can't always solve with the person you'd want to be there for you.

Britta: Yeah. And I think that's an important thing to remember, is that it is an imperfect science, it is an imperfect relationship, and that grief and loss and missed expectations can be a part of it, and to be tender with the others as well as with ourselves as we feel through those missed expectations or losses that we're navigating. Yeah, exactly. Oh, tough. And you talked earlier, and in your work, a lot about our own history, and how that can play into how we show up as grandparents. How would you say that history shows up in the grandparent dynamic, and how do you encourage folks to play with that?

Your Grandparent History and Setting a Vision for the Role

Moore: Well, I think one of the things that grandparents really need to do is to spend some time thinking about what it means to them to be a grandparent, so that they can really look at their own history and recognize which parts of it are going to help or hinder them going forward. I invite grandparents — in a resource I have called New Grandparent Essentials — to set a grandparent vision statement, and consider some of these questions about what it means to be a grandparent. What kind of things do you want to do? Who was a grandparent figure in your life that you want to emulate, or not emulate, as the case may be, right?

Britta: And sometimes looking at both of those can be helpful. Absolutely, yes.

Moore: There's nothing like a negative example to set us on course, right?

Britta: From time to time, yes.

Moore: Yeah. So I really encourage grandparents, so that they're aware of what their own history is doing to their vision of the future, and then I also tell them to talk to parents about that, because it's important to share that vision with the people whose child it's going to affect, right. So that's a very important step in the process, and I think — one of the things that I keep going back to for grandparents is: this is a new role, you've never done it. What other role in life would you walk into without preparing for? How would you take a new job after being out of the workforce for 30 years and say, I got this, I did this 30 years ago, I know what I'm doing, you don't have anything to teach me. Oh my gosh, everything has changed in your field in the last 30 years, everything. So you need to find out what's new in baby care and safety. You need to find out what parenting trends are popular. You need to find out what the landscape for parents looks like today. There's a lot to do to be a really involved and valuable grandparent.

Britta: Yeah, I love how you're speaking. It's making me smile and grin, because there's this idea that grandparenting, kind of like parenting, is innate, that you'll just know how to be helpful, you'll just know how to do it right. But that's not what you're saying.

Moore: No, it's not. It's not. And neither is parenting — like, would you have a baby without doing any preparation?

Britta: Well, sometimes that happens. Yes, I'm just gonna say, sometimes that happens, but it isn't necessarily a great idea.

Moore: No, and you know, raising that child, you're going to consult experts from time to time, right? So why would you not give that same care and consideration to this really important role.

Grandparenting as a Rite of Passage

Britta: Yeah, well, I love that, which makes me think — this podcast is called Transformed by Birth. It's named after my book, Transformed by Birth, and it really focuses on transformation, the rite of passage of becoming a parent. I think there's one happening for grandparents too.

Moore: Yeah, there is. Absolutely, it is a huge transformation. It is a huge transformation because you are stepping into an entirely different way of being a parent to your adult child, and you're also stepping into this incredible role of being available to a child in a way that you could not be available as a parent. You couldn't — you didn't have the perspective and the patience and the time to be there for your children the way you can be for your grandchildren.

Britta: Yes, and as you're saying that, it's making me think of the sort of stereotypical — and I definitely heard it in my family, raising my children, and I'm hearing it in my daughter's family — the idea that, well, now I'm a grandparent, I get to, you know, feed them sugar when I want to, right? Like, so we talk about that — let's talk —

Moore: About that, because I have worries out there about that, I have feelings, yeah.

Britta: Tell us your feelings, because I've seen this one where it's like, well, I'm a grandparent now, I get to give them sugar.

Spoiling vs. Serving: Rethinking Grandparent Culture

Moore: Yep, Grandma's house, Grandma's rules, you know that. Yes, that. Let's talk about that. Spoil the kids and send them home, right? That is the cultural programming that grandparents are getting, and I want parents to know that too, because we are being brainwashed that that is our job. But it's not. Those are such negative messages for grandparents. It is not the way to have a relationship with your adult children. It is not the way to have a healthy relationship with your grandchildren. Yes, indulge them with your love and your time — an extra gift from time to time is fine — but don't show up with a bag full of stuff every time you visit. I know at one point — I've always been a long-distance grandparent, so once when I was going to visit my grandkids, and I'm packing my suitcase, and I'm thinking, oh, I should, you know, I want to put something in there to bring to them, and then I thought, no. If you start that habit, pretty soon you're going to be greeted with, "What did you bring me?" and that's not what I want to hear when I see them. I want to hear, "Dee Dee, I'm so excited to see you." So I had to make — but that was hard, because everything that I was seeing, everything I was hearing, I'd been programmed. You bring your grandkids presents when you see them, and you —

Britta: Spoil them, and you give them what the parents won't let them —

Moore: Exactly, it's hard, and there are ways to give them things their parents can't give them that don't involve treats and toys and presents, or break —

Britta: Their family's value system —

Moore: Exactly, because we don't —

Britta: Actually want to be breaking, because if you're breaking the family's value structure, you're actually doing damage.

Moore: Yes, yeah. I just wrote — that was actually my email to my list recently. Was the question: when your values conflict with parents, is it ever okay to go against what they want? How do you reconcile that? How do you build bridges across that? And —

Britta: Great questions.

Moore: It was a great question, and it was one of the longer emails I've written, because there was a lot to unpack there. But the bottom line, grandparents, is that you have raised your children, you have had the opportunity to impact them with your values, to impart those values to them. They are now independent adults. If you've done a good job, they get to choose the values for their family. You don't go against those. It's one thing to sneak an extra half hour of TV time, because you can't get the child to settle — that's breaking a rule, and that's something that says, I'm not perfect, I'm sorry, I didn't follow the rule, I will try to do better next time. That's forgivable. But when you do something that goes against their values, that's saying, I don't believe your values are worthwhile, I'm not a trustworthy person around your children, and that's not a message that grandparents want to send. But parents need to realize that there is a difference between a value and a rule, right? If your value is that my child will not be exposed to screens, then that's an important thing for grandparents to follow. But if your rule is an hour a day of screen time, and grandparents give them an extra half an hour, an extra hour, and it happens once a month, you know, there's some flexibility there — there needs to be some flexibility there.

Britta: So it's really — yeah, so everybody needs to understand the difference between a rule and a value, and being in the dance of that is —

Moore: Yeah, is —

Britta: Really, and being respectful of that from the grandparent perspective, and somewhat understanding from the parent perspective, if a rule is a little bit fudged on occasion —

Moore: Right?

Britta: It's —

Moore: Right, right, and you know there's another thing that parents need to realize about grandparents, especially if your parents are taking care of your child: grandparents do not have the physical resources, the mental resources, that they did when they were 20 or 30 years old. And if you're asking a 68-year-old to provide eight hours of childcare, and they need to turn to the screen at some point, that's completely expected, and it's going to have to be acceptable. If it's not acceptable to you, then you need to find another source of childcare, because, or —

Britta: Really help the grandparents —

Moore: Help the grandparents. Yeah, here's other —

Britta: Ways to do it, right? Right, provide the —

Moore: Craft box, the books, the games — everything. Yeah, there's a few —

Britta: Like, if you have to use television, right, you have to write, here are two shows that are okay by us, right, like, yeah, and —

Moore: Watch Bluey, because it's a lot of fun for you too, just —

Britta: Well, my grandson is into Trash Truck, and what's the tiger, the —

Moore: Daniel Tiger. Daniel Tiger. Daniel —

Britta: Tiger. Yeah, and Winnie the Pooh, which totally works for me, like, you know, that's exactly school, right, right, yeah. So one of the things that I'm thinking about that has come up for me in my grandparent journey, and watching the other people that I grandparent with, is around grandparents who are looking for the child to enter into their world, and grandparents who enter into the child's world. Do you have any kind of guidance or ideas there for grandparents who are trying to find ways to connect with their grandchildren?

Entering the Child's World: Connection Through Books and Presence

Moore: Absolutely. I am a huge believer that books are the way to engage any child of any age, and I think that, you know, from going to the library together and picking out the books to reading together, there are so many ways you can connect through a book. You can choose books about your heritage, you can choose books about your interests, you can choose books about your grandchild's interests, and it's an amazing way to spend time together around a subject, around a story, that you can remember together.

Britta: I love that. One of my grandson's other grandmas records videos of reading books —

Moore: Yes, and sends —

Britta: Those to our grandson, so that he can have these stories that she's reading or telling, even when she's in a different country —

Moore: Exactly, and that's something I did, because, as I said, I've always been a long-distance grandparent. Until my grandchildren were in school every day, I read at lunchtime over FaceTime to them every single day — they set the iPad up on the table, and I'd pull out my pile of books, and read to them, and that was really cherished time for both of us. And their other grandma — I did it at lunchtime, their other grandma did it at snack time — and that way their grandparents were a part of their life without being able to be there every day.

The Impact: What Grandparents and Parents Say When It Works

Britta: I love that. So you probably get a really unique vantage point in your work of getting to see grandparents recognize how important their support —

Moore: Is. Yeah, yeah —

Britta: And I don't know, maybe do you get to also hear from parents, or do the grandparents get to share with you? Like, tell us a little bit about some of the sweetness in what you get to do, in learning from the people that work with you, what this experience is like for them.

Moore: You know, it is the greatest privilege in the world to get a message from a parent or a grandparent — and I get them from both — saying I'm so glad I found you. I shared this with my mother-in-law, and things have taken a 180-turn in our relationship. Or, I wish I had found this sooner, but I went to my daughter-in-law and told her I realized I had made some mistakes, and that I would like to do better going forward.

Britta: A well-placed apology is valuable.

Moore: Absolutely, and it's just — to know that there are people that need this message, that need to know, hey, it's not all about your grandparent experience. Be there to support parents in the ways they need. It seems like a simple message, right? It doesn't seem complicated. It's a lot of — it's common sense, and sometimes people will say that on my videos on Instagram. This is just common sense. I'm like, yeah, but —

Britta: But —

Moore: Is it? But for sure. Yeah, exactly. Common does not mean universal.

Britta: It doesn't mean universal, and it doesn't mean that we don't need the reminders.

Moore: Bingo, right? I need them too. I absolutely need those reminders. Absolutely need those. Yeah, I mean, you —

Britta: Just reminded me. I'm like, oh right, okay, right. I need to make sure that my son-in-law is as successful with his newborn as I am, way more so, frankly, because yes, it may feel easy to me, but that isn't what's helpful. What's helpful is helping them to really feel like they're thriving.

Moore: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we all need these reminders.

Britta: So, yeah, you know, common sense be damned. I'm a big fan of, let's say the common sense things out loud, right?

Moore: Because there's someone out there who has not, a, not even thought about it that way, or b, just needs the reminder, right —

Britta: Yes, and the reminders, and as you also said earlier, it's a new relationship, it's a new identity, and in my work, it's like — when we talk about, you know, newborn parents — well, newborn grandparenting is a thing too.

Moore: Yeah, it is. And you know, I feel very privileged to help people navigate that, because there's a need for —

Starting Over: Every Grandchild Relationship Is New

Britta: Okay, so now I have another thought here, because I've been initiated as a grandparent by my goddaughter having these babies, but I have a feeling I'm going to get a new initiation when my next kid has a baby. Like, I can't just assume that I figured it out, right? No, nope, nope, nope. Tell me about that.

Moore: Yeah, it's different with every child, it's different with every one of your adult children, because they have different partners, they have different values, they have different life circumstances, and what they need from you is going to be different. So you basically start at square one. Obviously, a lot of the things carry over, but as far as that relationship with parents, you start at square one with the same conversation: what does a good grandparent look like to you? You know, you've seen me with so-and-so's kids. Are there things that I do that you really hope that I don't do with your children? Are there things that I do that you would like me to do with you as well?

Britta: Are there things you don't want me to do? Are there exactly? Yeah, right. There are different things you want me to do, right?

Moore: Right, to —

Britta: Start over.

Moore: You have to start over, and that's why I sell this guide — New Grandparent Essentials — and I'm like, I don't care if you've had grandchildren already, you still need this if you have a child who has not had a baby yet and is going to. There's still pertinent information in there for you.

From Rules to Hope: Why Starting with Vision Changes Everything

Britta: Now, you talk in your work — and you mentioned it earlier — that you like moving beyond kind of the rules and boundaries to understanding what parents hope for.

Moore: Yeah, so —

Britta: Why that shift? Why does that matter? Why does starting with hope change the conversation?

Moore: Because the rules and boundaries parents put up are to protect what they hope for.

Britta: Oh, that is good.

Moore: Just came up with that off the top of my —

Britta: But those are — so those are strategies —

Moore: They're strategies to protect what they're hoping for, and so if you can start with the hope, those rules and boundaries make sense to you.

Britta: Okay.

Moore: And if they make sense to you, they're a whole lot easier to follow.

Britta: So for pairing with the parents about what they hope for, but also the grandparents talking about what they hope for. If you start in hope, you're getting a direction, you're getting pointed in the direction of what they want.

Moore: Yes, and in a positive direction, right? Instead of coming in with a structure and guidelines and rules, you're coming in with — here's this picture of how we want our family to evolve, and when you start with that, you're starting from a much better place.

A Note for Perinatal Professionals

Britta: I love that. So some of my audience are people who work with new families — they're doulas, midwives, childbirth educators, pelvic floor physical therapists. They're people who engage with this population of new families, and they're often in the room, especially like postpartum doulas, and birth doulas. I mean, I've been a birth doula with a grandma in the room, and navigating the — okay, who am I? Right, right — and dancing with that. When those professionals are in these spaces, sometimes family dynamics change. Is there something that you want to tell these perinatal professionals to understand about the grandparent experience that maybe you haven't already said?

Moore: Well, I've said most of it, but I do think that the important thing to remember is that grandparents aren't coming in trying to control things, they're coming in because they want to feel relevant and needed in their child's life, still, and so that is usually their underlying need for the way they behave, in both positive and negative, right. We all know the stories of the grandma bursting into the delivery room uninvited — yeah, uninvited, and unwelcome — but it's coming from a place of wanting to be important in this family's life. So I think knowing that makes it easier to navigate what to say to that person in the moment, you know — your time is coming. Yeah.

Britta: It's also really respectful to be understanding that they're wanting to be important.

Moore: Yeah, and I have — I actually have an ebook for parents called Understanding Grandparents: Building Bridges and Setting Boundaries, and it is all about really understanding the grandparents' viewpoint and where they're coming from, because once you have some understanding, it makes it a whole lot easier to navigate the things you need to navigate.

Where to Find Dee Dee and Her Resources

Britta: Okay. So you've mentioned a bunch of resources. So where do people find you with all these resources?

Moore: All on my website, which is morethan​grand.com — nice and easy. And I'm also on most of the social channels at More Than Grand, so that's the best place, but there's — if you go to my website, there's a little tab at the top for resources, and all of these things are there.

Britta: I love that so much, and we'll be sure to link those in the show notes as well. So, okay, as we bring our conversation to a close, I end with the same question every time. Two folks, are you ready for our final question?

Moore: I am ready.

Final Question: One Thing for Parents and Grandparents to Know

Britta: Okay, what's one thing you feel passionately about that you want new or expectant parents — and then I'm going to add new and expectant grandparents — to see, hear, feel, or know during this profound period of their lives? So if you can give one for parents and one for grandparents —

Moore: It's the same for both of them. Communicate. Take the time to talk with the goal of understanding one another, not with the goal of getting your point across. And if you can both communicate in a way that fosters understanding, the rest is going to be easy. Well, you know, relatively easy.

Britta: So, communicate for understanding, not to create rightness.

Moore: Yeah, yeah.

Britta: I love that. Communicate for understanding. Thank you so much for being here, Dee Dee. I really appreciate your wisdom and all of what you've shared here. And thank you, listeners, for sharing this time with us. If something shared today impacted, supported, or moved you, please share this episode with a friend. I produce this podcast myself, and your support makes it possible. To show a little love for the podcast and these conversations, please follow, rate, and review. If you'd like to continue the conversation, please join us on Instagram at Transformed by Birth. I look forward to being with you again on the next episode of Transformed by Birth. And now let's take what we learned, gather it in — what is it you want to take away from this episode? Breathe it in with an inhale, and on the exhale blow out the candle. Until next time, bye, friends.

Moore: Bye.