Babies Borrow Your Brain: The Neuroscience of Nurturing

Introduction and Welcome

Britta Bushnell: Hello folks, and welcome to transformed by birth, a podcast about the rite of passage of pregnancy, birth and new parenthood. I'm your host, Britta Bushnell, author, mythologist, childbirth educator and all around deep diver with a side of goofball. I'm so glad you're here. Today's episode unpacks the neuroscience of nurturing and connection with your baby. So grab your comfy beverage of choice or take us along for a walk as we connect with Dr Greer Kirschenbaum. Before we begin, we start the way we always do, by lighting a candle. If you want to join me, please do or just take a breath as I light mine.

Today's candle is for babies. One of the things that moves me deeply, in an aching kind of way, is watching new parents trying so hard to get it right. In the midst of new parenthood, being a new parent is hard work. It's tough. The stakes feel really high, because our babies matter so much to us. And add to that, the pressure we now feel as parents to raise our kids well. Previous generations mostly parented intuitively to wildly varying degrees of success. Let's be clear, today there is ever growing awareness of how important parenting is to our children for their long term well being at the same time, modern life asks so much of us as individuals and parents. We now know how we parent matters, but today, many of us have moved away from extended family members who might have been able to support us during this important time, families often need to outsource child care to make financial ends meet, and lots of us want to live lives with purpose and passion outside of raising our children.

What I see with many new parents I know and work with is that at the crosshairs of the struggle of contemporary parenting, that's knowing it matters while navigating the demands of modern life. Oof. Is it any wonder, then that families today are desperate for help, guidance and quick fix solutions to make this whole parenting thing easier. Many of us as parents long to make our babies more independent, more convenient, and generally more predictable, so that juggling these conflicting demands isn't so hard, and while this longing makes sense in the short term, the neuroscience of what's being formed in our children's brains might make us pause, take another breath, slow down and reset our understanding of what the situation actually needs.

So what are modern parents supposed to do? Well, that brings me to today's conversation with Dr Greer Kirschenbaum, a neuroscientist, author and mother in her book The nurture revolution, Greer makes the case that our societal norms are actually leading parents away from the very nurturing experiences that help babies brains develop optimally from pregnancy through those early years, we're often encouraged to do the opposite of what science tells us babies actually need in our conversation, we'll explore while those first three years are so critical, and what we can do to support ourselves and our babies during this time. Now, to be clear, this is not about perfect parenting. It's about understanding how simple, intuitive caregiving can literally shape our children's mental health for life. So welcome, Greer, I'm so grateful you're here.

Greer: Oh, thanks, Britta, I love all of your reflections. I can't wait to dive in.

Walking the Fine Line Between Neuroscience and Parenting Guilt

Britta Bushnell: Let's dive in. Okay, so I really want to say that the first thing that's coming to my mind, is what a fine line it is, and I'm hoping that we can walk during this conversation, that fine line between neuroscience and parenting, while not adding more to the never ending list of shoulds that Modern parents already use against themselves.

Greer: I find it it's so overwhelming out there, so overwhelming. And while we have, you know, we're in this wild information age, there's so many places to get information, it does turn into overload for a lot of parents. And like you said, parents know these years matter. Like that, that energy of you know all of it, that's where it's coming from.

Britta Bushnell: They already know that. So, so what tends to happen for so many is they, they learn more about it, and then they're like, Oh my God, look at all these ways I'm fucking up. And I don't want folks to come away from our conversation feeling that. I want them to feel empowered to make one small change or to understand something that will help.

Greer: I mean, when you understand how the baby's brain is developing, and you understand how parents brains develop, you can simplify tremendously.

How Baby and Parent Brains Develop Together

Britta Bushnell: Okay, so let's go there. Can we tell us what we need to know in in a podcast nutshell version? Because I know you wrote a huge, wonderful book about it, but, but are there some bullet points that we can know about how the baby's brain works and develops, yeah, and the parent brain that can help in

Greer: the absence of that village extended family members, lots of help. We can really let so many things go that, you know, don't matter that much, right? Of course, we want to do all the things, but we can't, like we're not going to do all the things. It's not possible. I mean, I think the the real big take home message is that babies and parents need to be close. They need to be connected. They need to be in deep relationship and deep communication with one another, and after that, nothing else really matters that much like that's the bedrock of of everything in these in these first few years, because while the baby's brain is growing so tremendously, you know, a million connections per second and a baby's brain are being formed influenced by both genetics and that experience and that relationship primarily so are mothers and fathers brains.

And so you know, if a mother births her own baby, her brain is going to start to change in pregnancy and continue to change very drastically in the first three years of a baby's life for dad or partner or adoptive parents or parents by surrogacy, so many ways, we can be beautiful parents. Our brains will start to change in the presence of the baby. They'll take a few months to get into the dramatic changes, but we are also so vulnerable and and going through like you say, call it transformed by birth, right? Transformed. We're in huge transformation in these early years, and the relationship grows us in really beautiful ways

Britta Bushnell: too, okay, that just sparked tears in the back of my eyes. The relationship grows us so that that connection, that being together with what presence, with attunement, just just being,

Greer: is part of what and it changes us mostly giving up. It's, I mean, it's mostly giving up and changing a lot of the ways that we've conditioned to go through our lives up until having our first baby, and probably in the baby years, right there, the years of being okay.

Shifting from Doing to Being

Britta Bushnell: So, so tell us more about that, because I have a feeling I have a sense of what you're talking about here. But let's, let's speak more directly to that, like, what are, what are some of those things that are being changed and confronted and required, although using the word rewired with a neuroscience is probably neuroscientist, is probably means something very so much rewiring.

Greer: But I mean in terms of, like, the way we are leading up to having a baby, we're mostly humans doing we're, you know, using our I always say, talk about it like we're using the motor circuits and our cognitive circuits primarily where, you know, working, creating, moving, exercising, socializing, cleaning, cooking, like doing in the world, right? Like making things happen, do things off to a to do list, yeah, a productive day means I can show you. Look, my house looks great. Look, I have a I've cooked a great meal. Look, I wrote 10 pages. I did have a great had a great day. Like, did a lot,

Britta Bushnell: yeah, look at my productivity. Examples of my day. Yeah. So much productivity focused, and yet I remember as a new mom, that part of feeling like I had productivity, gold stars for my day, like it vanished.

Greer: Yes, that's huge shift for people, huge shift. I work with a lot of moms that where that's just, you know, enormous, enormous change. Because we benefit, and our babies benefit, when, instead of being, we're sort of doing, we're being we become. We need to be with our babies. We need to, like you said, really slow down and learn to be present. Learn to feel a lot of feelings. Learn to be comfortable with both comfortable and uncomfortable feelings and sensations. Learn to be comfortable connecting social, you know, socially, connecting with our baby, with our selves, with our partners and loved ones, and you're probably not going to get much done out in the world. But by being you are growing your baby's brain to lifelong health.

You're growing the foundation of their brain that they will use in all moments of their lives, going forward, forever, every relationship they're ever in, you're you've influenced them to be really, you know, healthy and joyful and get all the good things from relationships in their life, from their careers, from their hobbies, from their passions and good deeds they do in the world and all of these things. That's all grown from zero to three. And you're also doing it for yourself. You're transforming yourself and maybe healing your own infancy, maybe healing your own struggles with mental health and relationships and all of the things that are hard. So being present, being attuned, connected, in very intimate relationship with your baby, is actually doing a lot of invisible work. It's doing things. It's actually connecting a million connections per second in your baby's brain and also fully remodeling your own. You just can't see

Britta Bushnell: it totally I mean, sometimes I feel like you can feel it though, sometimes I feel like, like you can actually feel the brain going, yes, it's hard. It's so massive, yeah, and it's hard work. It's hard work.

Multiple Caregivers and Quality Over Quantity

And I want to ask, because as you're talking about it, I'm wondering, and I know you talk about this in the book, but I want to address it here is, what if you've got a family where one is a full time student, one is an is the full breadwinner, there's not extended family around, And there's a baby, and both parents have the ability to be with the baby, but but not one more primarily than the other. Does this have to be a bond with one babies?

Greer: Do research show just babies do very well if they have that relationship with at least one, but two is even better than one. Three is even better than you know.

Britta Bushnell: Okay, so, so if there's, there's a collection of humans who are being showing up and being doing that work of being they, they can. It doesn't necessarily have to be a load yes on one human, as might have been a more past version.

Greer: Families look different, all different ways, and babies really just they really need that foundation with at least one person, at least one person. And yeah, and I think a lot of parents worry about that when they hear this about this work, that they can't be there full time, you know, for the first few months, or even those first few years, which some would want to some cases, right? But I always will say it's really about quality of the relationship and not necessarily quantity. And we do want as many relationships in a baby's life to be really high quality. We want, you know, if both parents are working, that someone's taking care of the baby, and so we'd want

Britta Bushnell: my baby's not home on their own, so

Greer: yeah, we want to influence that person to also, you know, know about nurture, high nurture, and know about what are the priorities for that family and and taking care of the baby. But even if that isn't ideal, the parents relationship. Internship is will still always be very, very important, especially with the clothes

What High Quality Nurturing Means

Britta Bushnell: so, so like if, if a baby is in a many child daycare situation where that real connecting one to one is less frequent, just by the nature of the situation, when that baby is home with its parents. Absolutely, that still matters. And what? What is it that still matters when you talk about a high quality nurturing relationship, let's dive into what does that mean? What does it mean to be like, to really be there? Yeah, there's so many layers. Of course, there are you wrote, you wrote a big book about it. I will say

Greer: a lot of childcare situations like like that you describe, actually are very high nurturing. You know, a lot of them do have ratios where babies do form beautiful relationships with their caregivers, and those caregivers are there in that job because that is their passion to love and take care of babies. And I've actually can't even think of, you know, more than a teeny, teeny handful of bad, you know, of like, not ideal, you know. So there's that. But yes, what? What do we want, right?

So, so a lot of parents will think, okay, my my child's going to be taken care of by a nanny or daycare. I need to withdraw myself from my child, so that they get used to me not being around. So, like, a lot of people, will force more independent. They'll be like, well, they're gonna be away from me. So, like, maybe they shouldn't need me as much at home. So I'm gonna, if I'm breastfeeding, I'm gonna wean them. If I rock them to sleep, I'm gonna leave them to sleep. If we play for an hour, we'll maybe we'll play for 10 minutes, right? They really that's kind of like out there in a lot of ways. And I say total opposite first, like, either don't change anything if you've already got a beautiful thing going on, and even then, you might actually want to increase all the connection at home.

So the first thing in that, in that nurturing, high nurturing relationship, is to be present, right, to start practicing that. Like you said, you can feel it. It's hard in your head to do it, but practicing doing that flip to from being a doing person to a being, person where you're actually sitting down, taking a couple breaths, feeling what it's like to be inside your body, arriving somewhere, arriving in the place, to be with your baby and start taking the world in through your senses the way that your baby does notice. How does your baby look today? How does their hair feel? What are their what are their eyes look like today? How do they smell, you know? How do they feel? Babies really, really live in a sensory world, and so we can kind of enter their world through our senses as well, and it anchors you to be present in the present moment. Very, very much so and so that would be like the first place.

Nervous System Regulation for Parents

And then you want to regulate yourself as much as you can, because, you know, we, you know, nervous system is complex, but we have our stress if our stress systems on, our rest, digest, connect, present system is off. So we do want to get into that. You know, it's our parasympathetic safety nervous system state, and we have to have, we have be there, yeah, that down brain might be there to connect, yeah, that's, that's the first step. So if anyone wants to start with something Larry, one, one step today, start with that. Yeah, start with yourself.

Britta Bushnell: So it's, there's, there's a so even in pregnancy, practicing working with your own stress response to ground and to down regulate and to drop into the parasympathetic state is preparation for parenthood.

Greer: Very good preparation for parenthood. And I think about it like

Greer: every time you switch. You know you can use your we can use our minds to change our brain like, we can use our minds and our thinking and our will to physically change connections in our brain. And so I think about that, making that switch from, you know, stress, and that can be like negative stress, where we're like, it's too much, and it's like, very high level, but it. Even just be in that, like, arousal, curiosity, kind of stress state, whenever we can switch from that into our parasympathetic or our more rested state. Think of it as like lifting, like doing like one lift of a weight, right? And like you need to lift a weight like 1000s of times in order to like tone your muscle. So you also have to practice these kinds of things 1000s of times to change right. And as a developing parent, you also have that neuroplasticity on your side, because the hormones of becoming a parent give your brain this extra advantage of, like being able to form new connections very quickly, and

Britta Bushnell: you're in a phase of adaptability in in the brain, right? That things are shifting. So, I mean, that's that feeling of, oh my god, something's happening. So really leaning into, okay, I'm I'm in a training period where it may not be that I'm building the muscle of my bicep with curls. I don't even know if the bicep is the whatever. You know, my metaphor may not work perfectly. Yeah, I think that is right. I'm like, That's the bicep. That's a girl. I think it works. But it may not be that you're building that muscle, but you're the reps that you're doing are helping build the brain, the muscle in the brain, sort of the practice of working with your nervous system, exactly.

Greer: And if you're pregnant, your baby's benefiting in the womb. When you do that, every time you regulate, every time you know you're doing anything that will put you in that state, your baby's benefiting their brain development's already benefiting in the womb. But then you, like you said, you're also preparing yourself for Parenthood in the years to come.

Being Present and Curious with Babies

Britta Bushnell: Yeah, yeah, wow, so, and I'm thinking, when you spoke about getting curious and getting on the child's level and kind of turning into your your senses, I'm, of course, as I shared with you at the beginning, before we started recording, that I have an 18 month old grandbaby, and being with him is just oh my god, it's The Sweetest Thing on the planet. But being with him, I actually am finding it in some ways easier in this era of my life to drop into that place of curiosity and slowness, because I'm not when I'm with him, I'm with him, I'm not also trying to make dinner and do the laundry, although I do, by the way, do both of those things at times when I'm with him and that family,

Greer: yes, But being the support is different than being number one, right?

Britta Bushnell: But being this right? I'm not, I'm not trying to do a whole lot of other things at the same time. And so I can sit down in the backyard with him and his trucks, and he's just curious, and a plane goes overhead, and he looks up at the plane, and it's like, oh yeah, you hear the plane and, um, you know, he's a lot of grunting sounds right now, but he feels, I can tell he feels me being present with him.

Greer: Yes, absolutely. I love also in those kinds of interactions, kind of suggesting parents, like, pretend that you haven't seen an airplane before, like, like, your baby hasn't, right, amazing. Pretend you haven't seen a sunset before, or, like, the color green, or a flower, because your baby's really taking that stuff in, not, maybe not the very first time, but maybe the first time in the way that their brains connected right now. And so that's like, the babies are our mindfulness teachers, right? They bring us present, and they invite us to start to notice things, and they can bring some magic and all back into our lives in really beautiful ways too.

A Story About Touch and Safety

Yeah, yeah. I want to, I want to share a recent experience that I had with my grandson and get your take on what was going on. So we were out to dinner, and he at this, this restaurant they had, you know, a singer, guitarist, just playing

Britta Bushnell: kind of background music on the porch. And he is very captivated by music. He loves music, and so we went out. I went with him to the porch, and we sat down on the stairs. I sat down on the stairs, and he was standing kind of right in front of the guitarist, singer, and he was watching him. Him, and just completely mesmerized. And I was holding him, but he was standing, so I actually pulled my hand away, because he was standing. He was I was like, Oh, he's fine. I'll just put my hand down here. And he turned to me, and he picked my hand back up, and I was like, Oh, he, he still wants to know I'm here or something. I don't know what, what's your take on what I mean, my first thought

Greer: was like, maybe he just felt like you were sharing that together, and he wanted to keep that connection.

Greer: And, you know, that's, that's like, kind of

Speaker 1: the beautiful way of seeing it, human version,

Greer: the scientific version, is Babies love touch. It makes them feel instantly feel safe. Instantly feel safe to have. You know, when we touch, we release oxytocin and makes us feel safe and loved and held and protected, which is what babies are looking for.

Britta Bushnell: Yeah. So even though I was in the exact same place, I was just as close to him in the rest of my body as I was I was completely present with him. But when I thought, Oh, I'm, you know, I'm kind of holding him in a way that he doesn't need, yeah, is what my brain was saying. Like he doesn't need me to stabilize him. He's fine. He's stable, but he reached out to have me continue to touch him, in part for probably that feeling of safety, reminder that way, that I was there,

Greer: like I like, that, that felt better, that way, which is beautiful, that he can Yeah, ask, and that

Britta Bushnell: yeah, in his nonverbal way, he just reached and pulled the hand back, yeah.

Why Years Zero to Three Are So Critical

So what is happening in years Zero to Three that makes this so big, so important? I mean, there's, there's a I highlighted something in your book, babies need to borrow your brain. Like, can you talk about that, or and, or the zero to three, like, or maybe integrate news

Greer: your ex, my sister in law, and she has 11 month old, 1011, month old baby right now. And I was making a joke, because they're like, oh, all the grandchildren come together for a picture. And so she was holding, obviously holding her baby. And I was like, I think they just asked for the kids. And she was like, we're one, Greer, we're one until age three. I think you know that joking with each other, right? And I was like, you know? And that is it. Our babies really are deeply interconnected with us from zero to three, and they need us for a lot of their brain function, their understanding of the world. And you know, I highlight their need for regulation, right their need, especially their need to regulate their stress systems.

Bio-Behavioral Synchrony and Nervous System Connection

And so our babies pick up on our stress like, that's why that was that first step is like, learn to regulate yourself, because your baby is always borrowing your nervous system. If you're heightened, chances are your baby's heightened, because you really are interconnected. So there's a scientific term called Bio behavioral bio behavioral synchrony from Ruth Feldman's lab, and looks at how our brain waves directly impact our baby's brain waves. Right? We are, we are connected. Our state's reflected in our baby. And so if we are always highly stressed, you know, in in high states of stress, our babies will be too, and that is how their brains will develop, right?

And that doesn't mean that, like you said, like no one is saying you have to avoid stress, never be stressed. Like we're going to be stressed hundreds and maybe several 100 times a day in our lives, and especially when we have a baby. But if we have the tool of regulation, if we have the tool of firstly, self awareness, of like, oh, whoa, that stressed me out, okay, let me everything safe now. Let me return back to baseline and use again our minds to change our our states, then we're regulating, right? And then, you know, we're going to be on an up and down and up and down and up and down all day, and that's actually healthy and fine. What we don't want is to go up and stay up all day and not have those dips down into regulation, right? And those times of connecting and safety and connecting and in a regulated state. So, yeah, so that's the first bit of how babies borrow our brain just completely out of, you know, consciousness, until, unless, until you've heard this, maybe or someone else talk about it before you tell the next piece, can I share a story that sounds connected to what you just said, which is, I have, you know, I have led. I'm not currently leading, but postpartum circles, and these parents come with their babies, usually six weeks to six months is kind of the range of age,

A Story About Nervous System Co-Regulation

Britta Bushnell: and they come into a circle with a bunch of other parents with their babies, and at some point in every session, a baby is gonna get upset. That's just something that tends to happen. There's a lot of kids, there's a lot of parents, there's a lot of activity. There's various different things happening. A baby's gonna be like, I'm tired, I'm hungry, I'm agitated, I'm stressed, you know? And what I would often see is their parent like getting activated themselves, about the fact that their child was activated and in a state of stress, and then the parent is trying from a place of stress about the fact that it's quote, unquote disrupting the circle, they would get kind of in a spiral, and the two of them couldn't settle. And I would often say, you know, would you like me to, you know, hold your baby for a minute or bounce your baby? Do you want a break for a second? And oftentimes, they'd say, sure if you want to. And within moments,

Britta Bushnell: the baby would usually settle.

Britta Bushnell: And they'd be like, Oh, my God, you're a baby whisperer. I'm like, No, I'm just a nervous system, right? I'm not worried about the baby being upset in the circle, and so they could draft off of my nervous system or borrow my nervous system to go, Oh, okay. And I may have met that baby three times.

Greer: It's beautiful thing. A lot of people will see this and actually feel bad about it sometimes in their own home, right?

Britta Bushnell: Oh, I know we have to unpack it together with them, because they often feel like, oh, look, I failed. Yeah, where you could succeed. What am I doing wrong when it and not

Greer: and some and you know, it's happened sometimes where people will say I was trying to soothe my baby, and then my partner came home, so I gave my baby to them, and then again, same story instantly calmed down. And then, you know, they'll feel bad like, Oh, I couldn't do it. And it's just that they've probably been with that baby for hours and a break. They're cooked. The other person has there's like, seeing the baby in hours, and they're like, great, give me this baby. I got it, right, yeah.

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Partner Dynamics and Nervous System States

Yeah, and that can be, I think it is actually helpful to understand what it is that's going on that is, yes, not personal. You know, I also see the inverse happen, especially with that energy, that often those who are identify as moms and have been raised as women, you know, coming into New parenthood with this, I've got to figure it out. Mentality who feel like, I'm just going to figure out how to do this, and often men or fathers who've been raised as through boyhood into adulthood, who are like, I don't know what I'm doing and I don't have the equipment, especially if the. My partner is nursing, and they'll do this. I can't do this, but so much of it is often coming from a place of I'm going to figure this out, I'm going to ground myself, I'm going to try and some of the I'm not figuring this out is actually perpetuating the cycle of not being able to figure it out. Yes, quote, unquote, figure it out. If that is making sense. Does that make any sense? What I'm trying

Greer: to say, the person is not the primary parent. Their space to do it right. We can give them guidance. But sometimes I'll see some moms and parents trying to be like, you have to hold the baby like this and move like this and sing like this. And it's like, that's your way, and that's probably how you are grounding and regulating and like, let's give that or the other parent, their

Britta Bushnell: partner or the other parent of figuring

Greer: it out. But we can give them that guidance. We can say, like, walking, bouncing, singing, humming, going outside. These are all ways that a person regulates, right? So when we're regulating our baby, we're really doing it in together again. We have that that brains connected. And, you know, the most typical way of calming a baby is that, like, rhythmic action of like, probably a combo of like, bouncing and hugging and singing a repetitive song. And once we have that mindset set shift of like, I'm doing it to myself and my baby at the same time, we're both benefiting from this, and we're both gonna calm down together. Like that has a bigger, a stronger effect, right to to help?

Britta Bushnell: Yeah, yes. Okay, so what are the the other things that you tell us about zero to three, that's a

Creating the Nurture Bath: Oxytocin and Connection

Greer: huge piece connecting and then connecting with baby. The other things that are so important for the baby's brain, so, you know, the neuroscience of it is, I kind of call this a nurture bath kind of effect, which is essentially, we want our baby's brain and our brains as parents and caregivers. Because, by the way, this also happens to doulas, nannies and Perinatal healthcare, 100% grandparents. There's so much cool research on how grandparents get tremendous mental benefits from from spending time with babies, even brain trauma, like people can rewire after brain trauma around a baby better because they're just babies are miracles. So head injuries, for example. So where was I? Yes, oxytocin.

So we kind of want to create this nurture bath, and that all comes from the bath, right? So we have to be regulated, to connect grounded and regulated, and then we want to just let being unfold so much. And so a lot of that can be just like sitting face to face with the baby, like if they're in that right mood, and that sort of alert, awake kind of mood, and just looking into each other's eyes, making faces, making sounds, this, again, could be brand mostly, is brand new for many, many people, right? Just doing that right? It's kind of labeled as like you're doing nothing, or, you know, like you're, you know, what are you doing, right? Yeah, it's very big.

Britta Bushnell: I'm just, I'm just wiring my child's brain, you know, something kind of important,

Greer: very transformative, and also hard, very hard, especially in a very disconnected society. And I felt this to an extent. I know a lot of the parents I work with feel this. It's like maybe the first secure relationship they've ever had with another human. Maybe it's the first human they're comfortable with looking into their eyes and connecting for long periods of time. It's safe, you know you can you trust your baby. Your baby trusts you, and you're safe for them, and you just be together like that, you know.

Serve and Return Interactions

And in these ways, it's called, in the literature, it's called serve and return, where a baby kind of serves something, like they'll they'll babble or make a face, and you kind of repeat it, and then you might do something, and the baby copies you, and, you know that evolves into, like, bringing a toy in, or, like you were talking about with your grandchild, looking at planes together, noticing the world together again, like your have brain synchrony. You're there and present. You're not like, what am I making for dinner? What, uh, what emails do I have to do? Right? If, as soon as that enters, you kind of just want to let those pass through and come back.

Britta Bushnell: They're going to come through, by the way, right? Oh, yeah. Like, they'll be streaming in they will be streaming, yeah. I mean, it's kind of even as somebody you know, with experience and practice with meditation, that happens in meditation too. And. It doesn't mean the meditation failed. It's an opportunity to for another new moment, exactly.

Greer: And these moments are not you being there without thoughts for long periods of time. They're like, can you get, you know, through a few seconds, maybe building up to a couple minutes, being present and like scattering them in throughout your day, right? It's again, not it's also not intensive. It's not like you're hovering around your baby constantly forcing these interactions, right?

Britta Bushnell: You don't have to do 18 hours a day of that, right?

Greer: Yes, exactly. It's like little brief moments that are happening on a regular basis, right?

The Importance of Touch and Proximity

So, so that's a really great way touch and proximity is huge. And our babies will ask for this a lot, and, you know, it is kind of out there a lot too, to fight it and be like, oh, I need to put my baby down. I need they need to sleep by themselves. They need to play by themselves. They need to, you know, do all this by themselves. But babies, especially in those early months, certainly in the first few months, up to three years, and even beyond. And it does, like reduce over time. They have attachment circuitry. And then they'll show us that they want to be held and close. They'll they'll reach for us. They'll hold on to us, right? And higher levels clinging, crying, and when we surrender to that need that they have give them a lot of holding, a lot of closeness, a lot of touch, then they flourish later on, right? We're kind of like filling up their tank in those baby years, until that time where their curiosity and exploration is that drive builds up for them to go out and explore in the world. So baby wearing is great. Baby sleep on you all those good things.

A Personal Story About Baby Wearing During Crisis

Britta Bushnell: But I love that you're helping me in like, I think back to when my first born was two and a half and my baby was five months old. My older son, well, he was almost three. My older son was diagnosed with type one diabetes, and life the ox cart of our life got Topsy turvied Like, in a very big way, and the focus on him and his health and learning like there was so much learning about management and how to do it. And I had a five month old. And so I remember I basically wore him attached to my body

Britta Bushnell: for the next

Britta Bushnell: seven months. Just i He was so often attached to my body. And I, I have a lot of you know, like, oh, a little bit of angsty pain around the fact that I don't remember much of what was happening for him, from from age five months to a year, like it picks back up at about a year, because we were in such deep survival mode. But he was almost always attached to my body. Anybody needed. Yeah, he's now a thriving, emotionally, really warm hearted, grounded, 23 year old, beautiful. And it's, it's like, oh, I guess what I'm hearing you say is I can sort of, you know, the fact that I wasn't gazing in his eyes necessarily, but I had him close and he was with me. Yeah, was maybe enough for those that navigating that traumatic time, and

Greer: you probably were doing a lot of things unconsciously that you don't remember. Because when you have a baby that close, you're feeding them when they're hungry. He's sleeping whenever he's tired, right? Having all the needs met. He's smelling you. He's hearing you. He's has so much of what he needs in that place. Yeah, yeah. And a lot. They'll also say that is the life of many a second, third plus baby, right?

Britta Bushnell: That is, that's right because, because it's a different world,

Greer: and that's the best solution with a second they do so many ways they need Yes, completely, completely,

Britta Bushnell: not to mention the fact that they get parents who have already been initiated, which has a benefit too.

Greer: Yeah, I was, I was gonna say you were probably unconsciously, just like, meeting all these needs. Well, had your mind maybe somewhere else, because I was already a parent the first kid, it was like, Am I doing it right? What am I doing? How am I doing? And there's, there's a different kind of dance with that. Right? It's absolutely, and I will say too, like, with the carriers and keeping babies close as well, like, a lot of the baby things, right? Like, they get cut off at around a year or so. Like, I feel like there's also this kind of idea, yeah, you know, regardless of what the parental leave is, that it's like, Okay, one, you're not a baby after that, yeah? Boom, boom, done. No, it is it is till three, and we'll talk about the the brain systems as well. We'll make sure we keep that in. But you can baby wear a baby up to three. Some people go up to five. You can do all kinds of nurturing care for for, for little ones, you know, and they're going to have those emotional needs will be present at least up to three years old, and probably beyond that too. And so there's a big part of the mindset shift is like not rushing it, not, you know,

The Four Beautiful Needs Questions

I talk about in my book these like beautiful needs, like questions that a psychiatrist, like, glean that we ask each other based on conversations that this is, like, such a convoluted reference, I always get so hard to like, I'll just say it, because I'll just say it so perfect. Just say it. The psychologist, her name's Catherine schlafer, these beautiful questions just started popping up everywhere I'd see them everywhere. I'm like, Wow, great. I need these in my book. They're so grounding for helping parents figure out presents for their babies. So I was like, emailed her. I'm like, What's the source of these? I need them for my book. And she's like, well, I glean them from watching interviews with Oprah and Maya Angelou and Oprah and Toni Morrison talking about their babies. So those conversations happened. Then Catherine saw those conversations, and she created these four questions.

And one of the ones that is so big, and I see this so much often, is babies are asking us, am I enough for you exactly how I am, or do you need me to be better in some way? And we are so often giving them the message that they are not good enough exactly as they are, and they must be better. They must grow faster. Need us less. Need, you know, less. Care less, holding less milk. You know, whatever it is, and that's a huge, huge piece to becoming a nurturing parent is to just understand it's everything takes lots of time. We've got to be patient. We got to just love that baby in front of us with whatever they need. And I will tell you, my son is seven. I have these questions up in my home, just like I ask all parents to do I have on my website for free, and I need that reminder all the time. I'm sure. I'm sure you do too, right?

Britta Bushnell: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, my my children are adults, and I still sometimes need to double check and remind myself that they are enough, yes, so that I can remind them

Greer: so no, there's no cut off. There's no like, you know, since some parents will be like, Okay, I'm going to be really nurturing. I'm going to, like, you know, take these, you know, this advice, and make it my own and lean into it. But like, when do I stop? Like, when can I stop? Like, what's the date, what's the age where I can stop?

Britta Bushnell: Well, I'll tell you that I love it when I hear my mom give me information that the amount of energy and focus and attention I'm giving her is enough. So there's an adult, adult. I mean, like my mom's 80, and I still, you know, and I'm in my my mid 50s. It's like my mom is still, I still want to know from her that what I'm doing is enough. So keep it going, right?

Greer: And repair can happen. And that for adult children too, right? All of this stuff can always happen, yeah.

Attunement: Wonder, Curiosity, and Openness

So the presence, proximity, and then a lot of the attunement, right? And attunement is a hard one to define, and I mean, I usually would describe it as just really paying a lot of attention, attention and to your child's emotions, to their brain, body state, to knowing about them, being curious about them, taking that stance of like Wonder, curiosity and openness at them.

Britta Bushnell: I love that.

Brain Development in the Nurture Bath

Greer: So, so you were going to talk about the brain stages, and I want to make sure we do that before we wrap up. So what are the brain stages? Absolutely. So back to this nurture bath, right? All those kinds of practices I describe. All of those will bathe your baby's brain and oxytocin, right? When you you know your son in the carrier, oxytocin was flooding through his system, you know, growing his brain. Yeah, that serve and return. Same thing, sharing experiences, attuning, same thing. It's going to, you know, make our adult parent brains have tons of oxytocin and dopamine and endorphin. And all these beautiful things, and same with our babies. And so when our brains largely develop in that kind of cocktail, right? Like, think of it as, like, let's you know, make a soup for the baby's brain.

Britta Bushnell: Like, mix this and mix that, and it's all in there. And that's what their is.

Greer: Our brains are floating in that they're floating in Cerebro spinal fluid, right? And that has all these, these components in it, it will basically incubate their brain to grow towards mental health, for the systems to grow towards mental health. So the biggest take home message is that the biggest, most important brain areas that are responsible for our mental health, our moods, our relationships, our own regulation and stress management through life. These are all formed in babyhood. So these are our amygdala, which are, you know, many things, but a lot of in our fear center, highly involved in anxiety our hippocampus, highly involved in depression and memory and many, many other things. Our prefrontal cortex, highly involved in emotional regulation. These areas are going to grow towards. Health will grow towards, you know, nothing deterministic, but you know, towards the side of a baby, developing positive mental health, mental wellness, you know So, being social, being curious, being exploratory, and really like the whole list of things we would ever, any parent would ever put on their wish list for their child.

Britta Bushnell: Basically, right? What do we want for our human child? These things, yes, exactly.

Greer: A sense of humor, resilience, like being able to handle loads and loads of stress and recover, probably one of the most important things that we know we need, being able to face challenges, all these kinds of things so that you know that is what's growing in terms of mental health, other things people will recognize all the neurotransmitter systems are growing and developing and essentially being set in in infancy. So a dopamine system or serotonin system, norepinephrine, all of these are also happening in in the baby year. So really, any part of mental health you can think of, you can look up, chances are any, anyone we've looked at, they've all been, you know, critically grown during zero to three. So it's the time for this very, very important growth. And this opportunity, a really big opportunity for us to grow.

Britta Bushnell: It growth and opportunity. I love that. Yeah,

Where to Learn More from Dr. Greer

okay, so I know we could, I mean, I could pick your brain for hours and hours, and I think you, I mean, I just love having a conversation with you, so I think we could keep flowing on that, and we're coming toward the end of our time. So I want to ask you, where can folks learn from you, or learn more about your work and what programs and offerings Do you have beyond everybody, go get the nurture revolution, fabulous book. What else is available?

Greer: Yeah, so I've have all my offerings on my website, which is nurture, neuroscience.com, and I'm on Instagram, Dr Greer Kirschenbaum, and I have lots of amazing new programs I'm so excited about. I have a professional certification that I offer once a year to basically take my book and bring it to your community and hold circles for pregnancy and postpartum, and also to do one on one sleep, which we didn't talk about today. Just a whole other thing we didn't talk about sleep. We might have to get you back to talk about the big S word in parenting, exactly, the scary S word. And so, yeah, I got that, and I have a new mother's program that I'm also leading as well. So I'm very excited

Britta Bushnell: by that. Is the new mothers program, like a an online program, or is it for new moms? Yeah, yeah, oh, wow, fabulous.

Greer: Lots of great things and yeah, so good to be here. Thank you so much. Britta.

Britta Bushnell: Like all day, absolutely.

Final Question: What New Parents Need to Know

So I have one more question for you, though, and that's so what's one thing you feel passionately about that you want new and or expectant parents to see, hear, feel or know during this profound period of their lives? I'm sure it includes everything you've already shared. But like, what's your nugget that you want them to take away, I

Greer: would want every parent in the world to know just how amazing this opportunity is that you have with your young baby, to reconnect to yourself, to your baby and to the world in so many ways, parents will. Say, once they learn about nurturing their babies, it changes everything for them. Going forward, they tap back into their humanity, their authenticity, their agency, and they start making all of their own decisions in the best interests of their families. And it's a really great entry point to that growth. So I would say, try it. I had, like, an old post that's like, just try it. Like, if you don't like it, then you're fine. Like, okay, we're great. But try it and give yourself that, that opportunity to experience it. It's hard to explain how it feels, but it's a good thing.

Britta Bushnell: Yeah, it's not just for the baby, it's also for you. Absolutely.

Closing

Thank you so much, Greer for joining me today, and thank you listeners for sharing this time with us. If something shared today impacted supported or moved you, please share this episode with a friend. I produce this podcast myself, and your support makes it possible to show a little love for the podcast and these conversations. Please follow rate and review. If you'd like to continue the conversation, please join us on Instagram at transformed by birth. I look forward to being with you on the next episode of transformed by birth. And now let's gather a takeaway or something that you want to hold from this episode and breathe it in on an inhale and on your exhale, I'll blow out the candle until next time bye. Friends. You

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