The Myth of the Perfect Birth with Avital Norman Nathman
We prepare for birth because we want to feel ready. We learn about physiology, choose our providers, and build our support teams.
We gather information, sometimes an enormous amount of it, hoping that if we understand enough and prepare enough, we might make the unknown a little more knowable.
And then there’s birth.
In this episode of Transformed by Birth, I sit down with writer, editor, advocate, and author Avital Norman Nathman to explore what she calls the perfect birth myth, and what happens when we mistake preparation for control.

The Myth of the Perfect Birth
For her book, The Perfect Birth Myth: Pushing Back Against a Broken Industry, Avital and her co-author expected a few hundred survey responses about people’s experiences of birth.
Instead, thousands of stories poured in.
People wanted to talk about what happened to them. They shared stories about fear, finances, insurance, interventions, expectations, and the gap between the birth they had imagined and the one they actually experienced.
Behind statistics about birth are real people making decisions within circumstances they don't always control. Avital shares examples of people weighing pain relief against insurance coverage or making decisions about where to give birth based on what they could afford.
That distinction matters.
We can make choices, prepare, and advocate for ourselves. But none of those things guarantee a particular outcome.

Why We Reach for Control
Birth asks us to enter an extraordinarily vulnerable space.
Avital shares her own detailed birth plan in the book, something she can now look back on nearly two decades later with a different understanding. At the time, preparing for every possibility helped her respond to the fear of what she couldn't predict.
As she puts it, if we can prepare for every single thing, perhaps nothing will feel unexpected.
Except, of course, we can't prepare for everything. There is tenderness in recognizing that impulse rather than judging it.
Birth involves our bodies, emotions, relationships, and families. We're navigating unfamiliar language and systems while experiencing something profoundly personal.
Of course we want something to hold onto.
When Information Feeds the Fear
Today we have access to more information about pregnancy and birth than perhaps any generation before us.
That doesn't necessarily make us feel safer.
Avital describes an environment of information overload where social media can make it difficult to distinguish evidence from opinion or misinformation. The loudest voice isn't necessarily the most trustworthy one, and a short video stripped of context may have little relevance to an individual person's circumstances.
During our conversation, I'm reminded of something one of my former teachers, Clarissa Pinkola Estés, once said:
“Fear is hungry for information.”
When we're afraid, we search, and search for some more information and more answers.
Sometimes the information helps us feel grounded. Other times, we leave the buffet of information overstuffed and nauseous.

When “Failure” Isn't Personal
One of the most important things Avital wants parents to understand is that what happens during birth is not all on you. That's difficult to remember in a culture that often frames birth through individual choices and personal responsibility.
Rather than immediately asking, What did I do wrong?, we can ask what circumstances and systems shaped what happened.
As Avital explains, the purpose isn't to frighten people. It's to take some of that weight off their shoulders.
Maternity Care Voids Are Made
Avital intentionally uses the term maternity care voids rather than maternity care deserts.
A desert is a naturally occurring ecosystem. A community without adequate maternity care didn't simply develop that way on its own.
Hospitals close maternity units and funding disappears. Policies restrict where and how midwives can practice. Families can find themselves traveling hours for specialized prenatal or birth care.
Those are human-made conditions, which also means they can be changed.
It's another reminder that we can't talk honestly about individual birth experiences without also talking about the environments in which people are giving birth.
You're not alone. Share your story.
Someone else has had the strange thought you thought only you had, and has made the mistake you're embarrassed about.
New parenthood can feel profoundly isolating.
Our stories remind us that we're not the only ones figuring it out as we go. So if you feel called, share!
Perhaps the goal was never a perfect birth. It's more so about entering the unknown with information, support, agency, and enough grace for ourselves when the experience refuses to follow the plan.
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
- Avital Norman Nathman via her website and Instagram.
- Read The Perfect Birth Myth: Pushing Back Against a Broken Industry (use code BIRTHMYTH20 for 20% off).
- Explore the people and organizations highlighted in the book who are working to improve maternity care and support birthing families.
Continue your exploration with more Transformed by Birth podcast episodes, and connect with us on Instagram @transformedbybirth where the conversation keeps unfolding.
Introduction and Candle Lighting
Britta Bushnell:
Hello, folks, and welcome to Transformed by Birth, the podcast about the rite of passage of pregnancy, birth, and new parenthood. I'm your host, Britta Bushnell, author, mythologist, childbirth educator, and an all-around deep diver with a side of goofball. I'm so glad you're here. Today we're talking about the myth of the perfect birth. So grab your comfy beverage of choice. It's hot here today, so I've got sparkling water. I'm ditching my typical tea. It's a strange one for me, but it's just true. Or take us along for a walk as we connect with author and advocate Avital Norman Nathman. Before we begin, we start the way we always do by lighting a candle. If you'd like to join me, please do, or just take a breath as I light mine. I'm lighting today's candle with tenderness for the very real longing to feel deeply in control when facing the unknown. Only around 20% of the 1000s of people who responded to a birth survey said that their birth went according to plan. 20% If I'm deeply curious with myself, I might even be surprised it's that high, and maybe that's why the saying goes something like, "Birth is what happens while you're making other plans. And labor, birth, and parenthood are complex, unpredictable experiences that involve other people, our fallible bodies and a boatload of mystery, so it kind of makes sense that they don't often go to plan. But that doesn't stop us from wanting control, from writing detailed birth plans, spending time and selecting the best support team to help us, and learning about the physiological process as if it were a map that charts the journey with order and predictability. And as somebody who's been in the field of birth for more than a quarter century now, I really get it. I understand the longing for control, and the desire to make the unknown knowable. Enter the blossoming of the perfect birth myth, and today's guest, Avital Norman Nathman, spent years unpacking exactly why we believe in the myth of a perfect birth and what it costs us when birth doesn't match the plan. Avital is a writer, editor, and storyteller who has spent nearly 20 years using words to challenge norms and amplify underrepresented voices. Her work, infused with a sharp feminist lens, explores motherhood, maternal health, gender, and reproductive rights, and has appeared in the New York Times, Teen Vogue, Rolling Stone, Cosmopolitan, Vice, and Beyond. That's quite a list. She previously edited *The Good Mother Myth: Redefining motherhood to fit reality. For her latest book, The Perfect Birth Myth: Pushing Back Against a Broken Industry Avital and her co-author sent out a birth survey. Sent out a birth survey, expecting a couple of 100 responses. They got 1000s, folks. 1000s stories poured in about fear, about the illusion of control, about achievement mentality that convinces us if we just try hard enough, plan hard enough, we can guarantee an outcome that was never guaranteed to begin with. So we're going to talk about all of those things. We're going to talk about fear, about the systemic issues layered underneath that fear, racism, capitalism, the total absence of a national paid leave policy, and about why 65% in the study identified, or in a study identified feelings of failure connected to birth. So I'm excited for this conversation. I read Avital's book. I got an advanced reader PDF, and I'm so excited for this conversation, you folks. So welcome, Avital. I'm so glad you're here, and I'm honored to get to talk with you.
Avital Norman Nathman
Thank you so much, Britta. I'm so excited to be here and to talk with you as well. That was a great introduction. I'm flattered.
Britta Bushnell
Oh yay! Well, as you should. I mean, I I just finished your book last weekend. I was in that like gotta finish it, gotta finish it. I know I'm talking with her on you know this week, so I gotta get to it. And I got through it, and it's really a. A beautiful book talk. I mean, beautiful, painful
Speaker 2
book.
Britta Bushnell
If if I'm, you know, there's a painful quality of pulling back the curtain on the state of care around birth in in our society, and so in that way, it's painful, and it's beautiful in that you offer suggestions and recommendations and some solutions, resources, and it's beautiful also in that you share a lot of stories.
A Book That Didn't Fit a Niche
Avital Norman Nathman
Yeah, I appreciate that. You know, one of the things when we were shopping around this book to publishers is that it didn't fit in any kind of niche, and people were really having a hard time figuring out how to pigeonhole it. It wasn't a self health book, and they were like, you know, that like where can is this a what to expect? I was like, no, the whole point behind this book is that trying to give people grace because we live in a society where we can't even begin to talk about the personal failures, if that's what you want to call them, or achievements or lack thereof, when we have a system that isn't set up to support. And so I wanted to investigate that. I really wanted to interrogate that, and I, like you said, pull back the curtain to help people feel less alone. That's why we start each chapter with a birth story that comes from these surveys or someone I know. That was really important to me. I love narrative in general, but people were so eager, and this was not. I've sent. I've shared the survey with people since then, and they're shocked because it wasn't a light lift. We asked a lot of questions. Like looking back, I was like, "What right did we have to ask so many questions? But and that's why we thought maybe you know our nearest and dearest and a few of their friends might answer. We were shocked it took off, and people wanted to tell their stories. They were hungry for it, and some people wrote pages and pages of their birth story to put out anonymized, like they didn't know where it was going to end up or who was going to read it. And I'm so grateful to every single person that took the time to do that.
The Stories Behind the Numbers
Britta Bushnell
What was that like to read 1000s of answers, responses to this survey? Did it did it give you any kind of one? Did it answer the did they answer the questions that you were wanting to ask in regard to or wanted answered about what was happening in the medical industrial complex in birth in this society? Were the answers aligning with like were there big surprises, or was it like, oh shit, this is what we were thinking was happening?
Avital Norman Nathman
So it was a combination, right? Like I think we had a pretty good idea just based on the research and everything that's out there about the state of birth, and so it just reinforced it. But and I don't want to say surprising; it was still shocking. Some of these stories, like I, you know, we have a chapter on the cost of birth, and we get really dive into insurance. And not one, but two people that I read, that at least that we share in the book, but I'm sure there were probably more in the surveys that talked about how their hospital was in network, but they had decided to go with pain relief, and their anesthesiologist was out of network. I don't even understand how that works. I read that
Britta Bushnell
chapter and I and that passage, and I was like, wait, wait, what, what, where? So just like
Avital Norman Nathman
those little details, or like there was an you know sticking on the insurance. There was one person who lost their job, and their insurance is going to run out by the end of the calendar year, and so they induced them so that they could give birth before their insurance ran out. You know, I think like a week or so early, so not to a dangerous degree, but still.
Britta Bushnell
Oh, I think it was like the 29th of December. Sorry, but I'm
Avital Norman Nathman
saying like she was due maybe like oh okay yeah I
Britta Bushnell
was like I was like as a as a baby that was born on december 28. I clocked that. Yeah, you're like, but
Avital Norman Nathman
I mean, these were the real stories, right? So we see a lot when we read these studies and reports and data. They're all numbers, and I was really interested in hearing the story behind those numbers, and we got them, and so that's what I really appreciated. So it didn't nothing really surprised us, but it was those stories that really illuminated those numbers that I was that blew me away. Yeah, even though I knew that you know how many births end up in C-section or how much birth cost, and hearing how people were really like having, can I afford to have pain relief? If not, maybe a home birth. I didn't want a home birth. I actually wanted a medicalized birth, but I can't afford my deductible, and a home birth midwife would be cheaper. So maybe making choices for reasons I wouldn't have even anticipated.
Britta Bushnell
Yeah. Wow. Getting those
Speaker 3
the
Britta Bushnell
human stories, which also makes it shocking and not surprising.
Speaker 4
Yeah,
Britta Bushnell
yeah, yeah, and and you, I mentioned in the intro about in as part of this survey, discovering that you know 20% of your respondents said that birth went according to plan.
Avital Norman Nathman
Yeah,
Britta Bushnell
what what does that mean? What does that number mean to you? So it can mean a number
Avital Norman Nathman
of things, right? It could be deceiving in that you think maybe that's high, maybe that's low. But also, what were those plans? Maybe that 20% was just like, and as you could see, some of the responses were healthy mom, healthy baby. If that was your plan, then yes, the majority of births are going to come out that way. But a lot of people, their plans are not that. I don't want to call that simplistic. That's a pretty, especially in the society, a pretty damn good goal. But
Britta Bushnell
if
Avital Norman Nathman
you had like you, you read my birth plan. I very bravely put it out there. You
Avital's Own Birth Story
Britta Bushnell
did. I do want to flag that for everybody that Avital put in the
Avital Norman Nathman
book verbatim. Like it was from that word doc. I cut and pasted, did not change it. It
Britta Bushnell
is detailed, y'all, and it's it's it's in there, but but it's also really like my heart got really tender for the you that wrote that.
Avital Norman Nathman
Yeah, thank you,
Britta Bushnell
because it there was so much that was seeping through the lines and the words and the hopes and the fears in in between the words that you wrote.
Avital Norman Nathman
You're like, that's a type A.
Britta Bushnell
I've been at this a long time, and there's a lot of us that fit in that that area, and and and so yes, you did. You put your birth plan in there, and so that yeah, I would I would imagine that you would say your birth did not go according to plan. No,
Avital Norman Nathman
actually, my but I I well according to that plan but it was pretty standard looking back like it was I I happened to be young I had been in padromal labor for two weeks that helped I waited at home until my water broke in the bathtub I had a doula she was phenomenal we drove to the hospital at 630 in the morning. I remember seeing the sunrise. I was my midwife's only patient on the floor, so she read the the birth plan. By the way, it was in a one and a half inch white binder. I still remember she read it like you know cover to cover three times, maybe. At some point my baby's heart rate did decelerate, but my doula snuck me some banana. I ate a little. He was fine. I pushed for like 45 minutes, and then I left by 6p.m. that night.
Britta Bushnell
Yeah,
Avital Norman Nathman
not a fan of the smells and sounds of hospitals, but I wanted to be at one just in case. You know, just in case, because we were new to this, the area that we were living in, and didn't have much support or community or family there, so I think that played a lot too into my plan. I was very, we were both my husband and I were on the younger side, and it was the fear, right? So I thought I could face that fear With control, and then you know, yeah. So,
Britta Bushnell
can we unpack that a little? Yeah, sure. Talking about how birth plans are a really natural response to fear.
Avital Norman Nathman
Absolutely, it's that sense of control. Birth is very unknown, even though we it is a process that we know. There are a lot of things that can happen along the way, whether that's through intervention, something with the mom, something with the baby, and you want to grab. You know, some people are great at giving up control and letting you know the professionals do their job. I think a lot of us really aren't, and one way to kind of combat that fear is to, you know, if I can prepare for every single thing, then there's no unexpected because I prepared for it, even though you really can't prepare for everything. But what's interesting and what I didn't realize, and in you know, it took me now almost two decades of retrospection. Everything I had put in there, for the most part, was stuff that was standard in my midwife's practice. She worked under an OB/GYN practice. It was actually one of her last births because about a week after, and this is in the book as well. Her practice ended midwives from catching babies. They could only do pre and postnatal care because of raising insurance rates. And two weeks after giving birth, I had about 30 something people in my house. I'm leaking, dripping, have a you know. A baby on the boob, and we're talking about how can we create a midwifery program in our our little community. So I went from just new to this area to helping to being an
Britta Bushnell
activist. Yeah, yeah. And
Avital Norman Nathman
what's amazing is so the the book is coming out in September. I'm having a book release party, and we're going to include. It's more a celebration of the community. There's going to be a panel of midwives from and nurses from this midwifery center that started almost 20 years ago, like two weeks after I gave birth. So it's pretty full circle, special, amazing. That's pretty
Britta Bushnell
special, full circle. Yes. Yeah.
Where Agency Gets Lost
Avital Norman Nathman
But so going back to what I was saying is that I didn't know in that moment because you you're told you hear all these stories you hear about places where agency is that's another thing, right? Are the the lack or the fear of lack of agency? Birth is vulnerable. It's vulnerable emotionally, hormonally, physically. We're really opening ourselves up in a multitude of ways, and for a lot of people, that's scary. A lot of people, it's the first time they've ever done that, and not just physically, right? And so, I think there's that. That's where a lot of the fear comes in too. I mean, I'm not a psychologist. I'm not a psychiatrist, but just in talking with friends and folks and people, as you know, with the book and the surveys, I see that time and time again. People, the that vulnerability is is really something.
Britta Bushnell
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, as somebody in this field for so long, the vulnerability is something that is constant. Like it's a it's a thread across the 26 years I've been in this field that is still there. Even it makes
Avital Norman Nathman
people, even like really confident, really centered, grounded people. When you're there, you know, vomiting onto the floor, I still remember throwing up during transition onto those great grippy socks they gave you, and just apologizing to everyone in the room.
Britta Bushnell
Yeah,
Avital Norman Nathman
like as I am like weeping and like like you know liquids out of every possible organ. Every
Britta Bushnell
every everywhere.
Avital Norman Nathman
I'm like I'm sorry, guys, and you know these nurses have seen it all, and they were just the sweet, sweetest pie. And I got a new pair of grippy socks.
Britta Bushnell
You got a new pair of grippy socks. Which there's a I'm trying to remember it, and I I think I have it somewhere in my notes here. But you there's somebody that you interview that talks about that agency and self advocacy and talks about how we're we're dealing with a whole demographic of people who will not send back a steak that is not cooked the way that we want it to, and yet then we're saying advocate for yourself while in this very vulnerable.
Learning the Language of Birth
Avital Norman Nathman
It's not like you can walk up and go to another restaurant or another in this case another hotel. Like you, you can't physically, right? There's just there's it's not happening, and so you need to be able to not only trust yourself but trust the people that surround you, right? Whether that's your partner, your parent, your doula, your midwife, your OB/GYN, your provider, whoever it is, and that can be really hard when we've seen and we know what the healthcare industry and the medical industry have done, right? Not just in birth. We know the you know the racist history. We know the sexist misogynistic history. We go a little bit into it in the book, talking about how birth was in the you know once it went into the into the hospital. So 40s 50s, we have Judy Brock, who's now retired local midwife, shared her birth story as a nurse had to fight so her husband could watch through like this one-inch peephole and fight to be awake for her birth. That she wasn't knocked out. That the doctor was like, "Yeah, she's a medical person. She know like absolutely wild. Not to mention the like group recovery center where everyone smokes cigarettes. That at least I feel like we can laugh about, but not the first part where she had a fight to to be conscious to give birth, and so I think people are aware of how it was, and so it makes absolute sense why you know we hear people being forced into C sections or forced into
Britta Bushnell
inductions
Speaker 5
are a big big piece that's happening,
Avital Norman Nathman
right? Not. I think there's like a disconnect. You know, I talked about how a lot of the stuff in my birth plan, my midwife's office already had in place, but I don't know if we ever had that conversation about that, or I wouldn't have been so particular about including everything, but. I did trust her. We had had many appointments and meetings and stuff, and she she knew what I was hoping for in my birth. I had my doula there that I knew was going to help advocate for me, and my husband, who is also a medical professional, so I also so I knew he would be helpful in a couple of regards, but not everybody has that, and I think many
Britta Bushnell
people don't, right?
Avital Norman Nathman
So I understand, like the privilege that I, you know, I was able to, that that I had was just in retrospect. Again, I'm like, wow, maybe that's why I was a one and done. Like I did it, it was great. We got out of there, okay. Like we're happy. But for folks that feel that they don't have a voice, you know, this is people who can't, you know, who don't speak English as a first language. How are you? You know, the medicalized terms. Even people who speak English as a first language, people are talking terms all around you, and maybe you don't know what they mean. That can sound really scary.
Britta Bushnell
Yeah, absolutely. I talk about that in my book about the language of birth being a language that we have to learn a little bit about. And I date myself because I often say there's there's a value. Remember those Lonely Planet got phrase books that were really tiny, like they were pocket sized, so if you went traveling somewhere, you could open it up and be like, "How do I say? I remember being in where's the bathroom?
Avital Norman Nathman
Yeah, I remember
Britta Bushnell
being in Thailand as a you know newly new college graduate and being like, "Yeah, how do I say where's the bathroom? Yeah, having it and that birth is a little bit like going to a country where there's a language we don't speak,
Avital Norman Nathman
right? And it's happening to your body, so there's that extra personal layer, and
Britta Bushnell
your body, your the the emotions, your family is changing. There's so about
Avital Norman Nathman
the hormones.
Britta Bushnell
It's it's a lot all at once, and so it it makes sense. I mean, I really do have a tenderness for the part of us that craves control.
Avital Norman Nathman
Yeah, it's it's absolutely understandable. And so, like I mentioned, you know, this is not a how-to book. I'm not promising you a perfect birth does not exist. It does not happen in this country, but we do offer a way. So one of them is talk to your provider, find out like is allowing you know the core to stop pulsing part of that. Maybe they're like, yeah, sure, we like that's great. We don't mind,
Britta Bushnell
or we don't mind, or it's already standard,
Avital Norman Nathman
right? Or it's already there's so that standard of care here, but there's that disconnect because even Deb, as a midwife, we we include that story of her talking to another nurse. Like, how do they not know we do all of these things? And it's like, wait, do we not tell them? Because in their mind, as providers, it's standard of care. Of course, this is how it goes. But if that's your like, you know if you're not a sous chef or a chef in the back of a kitchen, you don't know how things happen, and it just does. And you just assume everyone else maybe knows, you know how a souffle is made. Who knows? But just like these every day, they're doing how many births a day. That this is just how it goes. This is, yeah, we don't have to do, you know what is a heplock or the you know for the IP? Yeah, no. Here we are okay with that unless you have maybe some certain things, some flags that put you into a different category, or yeah, of course you can walk around untethered, or of course you can do this or that. Yes, you can eat or whatever it is, and things change as evidence-based changes, and so how are we?
Britta Bushnell
And they even change in the moment as circumstances change.
Why Midwifery Care Looks So Different Elsewhere
Avital Norman Nathman
Absolutely right. There's different levels. There's different. You know, we're now. You know, we're not anymore in the low risk category. We're here. Okay, so there's different things, but they still could be surround, you know, related to what you're hoping for. So I think there's a lack of conversation. I think this happens a lot because of our healthcare system and the hurried appointments we have. Because providers are very rushed and crunched for time. That goes back to insurance and what gets covered. And if you go past a certain amount of time that does this get covered as a different appointment. That's why I and many others are very much in proponents of midwifery model of care because it's very different. We talked a little bit before this about group prenatal care. I mean, an hour, an hour and a half appointment. Could you imagine, like you're still getting maybe five minutes of a physical check, and then you can talk about all of these things, and so other
Britta Bushnell
people, with
Avital Norman Nathman
other people, exactly. So you don't feel alone, you don't feel ostracized, you don't feel weird because you've got a hemorrhage that you can't talk to anyone about. But oh, so does this person, and so does that person. They've got to hold this while they go to the bathroom, so it doesn't feel like something's falling out. You know, it demystifies it, and I think that helps get a little like we can take a breath. But that's not the regular, right? That's not the that's not how it is here. We in the U.S. OB/GYNs outnumber midwives three to one. Right here, it's just that's how it is, and we could talk about why. We could talk about state policies that don't promote midwifery. We can talk about you know the difficulties of non-standard diet. We talk about standardization. There's no federal standardization around midwifery. It's very state based, and some states, especially the ones with the worst maternal care records, have the worst, you know, restrictions around midwives and what they can do, how they can provide. It's not surprising. But when you look at other countries, so I talk in the book in the chapter, why are we the worst in the world? Which is a little tongue in cheek because we're not the worst in the world, but we are the worst amongst similarly resourced countries. It's just you-you
do unpack that very quickly. You-you're like, I need you. I can't just put like the title, but now let me explain it.
Avital Norman Nathman
Right? No, exactly. Like people are like, but we have potable, like potable water, and we have yes,
Britta Bushnell
yes, absolutely. We got electricity.
Avital Norman Nathman
We've got the basics. But here's the thing: amongst countries that are like us in that way, we suck. We just do. We pay the most money to have the worst outcomes, and you know, in any other industry, that would not be acceptable. But yet here, because I don't know, because it's related to women, because it's in a category of you know maternal maternal care is a loss leader for hospitals. There's many reasons what we could talk about why, but so going back to midwives, right? We know that they work. We know that they are evidence has shown that they are the best form for not just low risk birth, but definitely low risk birth and even like medium risk birth or pregnancies. So it's a three to one ratio here in the U.S. In other countries, so New Zealand, which has a 7% maternal mortality rate, they have 46 midwives for every 11 doctors. Like it's not rocket science. They know you're only seeing an OB/GYN if you need surgical care. It's it's not standard of care to see a surgical doctor for labor and delivery, and so
Britta Bushnell
so different.
Avital Norman Nathman
You know, I think a lot of people, especially maybe definitely our mothers, maybe some of our contemporaries, bought into the idea of that's just how it is. We see OB/GYNs because that's you know midwives were earthy, crunchy on a farm like that, you know, that was the kind of concept that came out, but it's really not. And the rest of the world gets it, and I think we're cycling back to that. Unfortunately, with and I talk a little bit about, you know, there was an administration change when the book was being written, and we have the Make America Healthy Again movement, which is so frustrating to me, because it's like the antithesis of that, and they're co-opting midwifery, and not even they're like just have a baby, and you don't need any help. Your dog can chew the umbilical cord, and it really devalues, and I really think it remystifies midwives, so that then a random person who isn't aware of what midwives really are is like ah, but I heard like they're woo woo people who are gonna let me bleed out or whatever, and they don't know how to like really help and do any neonatal you know care, and it's it sucks because that's well. We're
What We're Really Longing For
Britta Bushnell
getting, we're definitely getting a lot of misinformation about what midwives want. I mean, I will say that I remember when I was pregnant with my first that I was looking for a midwife, and my image of what I was thinking I wanted was kind of witchy. I'm just gonna say it. Like I kinda, I was living in Topanga Canyon. I was like, I want my witchy midwife to come down from the hills, and like I had her satchel of herbs. I did. I'm gonna just say it. Like I, I had the ideas of those things, and and I wanted some of that earthy quality. I was a yoga teacher, like I mean, I was definitely crunchy. And my my OB's office, I was seeing a certified nurse midwife in my OBS office, and she said, "Oh yes, you are pregnant. You know, to confirm what I already knew, but you know that's how those things were. Sharon, yeah, yes, you are pregnant. And have you what? How? What are you thinking about for your birth? Because my my OB actually was more of a gynecologist, wasn't doing obstetrics any. And so it just it they were also asking because I wasn't going to do it there with that practice and I said yeah I am considering working with a midwife and maybe doing out of hospital and she gave me one name and that that person that she gave me was not witchy was not was like very medically astute and very a certified nurse midwife very kind of highly trained medical professional yeah that's who who I went to see, and I was like, "Wow, okay, this I was kind of going this direction, and and who I was recommended is in this direction, and and truly, there's a spectrum that's available out there.
Avital Norman Nathman
Absolutely, but I want to touch on something like you say you wanted someone witchy, but what I also heard was that you wanted someone who would listen to you, who would give you care? Who wouldn't not necessarily doubt you, but that would really hear you and hear what your hopes were and and and and talk to you. And I think, especially in this fast-paced medical world, we just don't get that with our providers, especially doctors. And so we look for the antithesis of that, and for in our minds, it must be this like mother goddess moon, whatever. You know what I mean? Because how could a medical provider be able to do those things that we want, that nurturing that we want? But it's possible if the system isn't so rigid, isn't so adherent and beholden to insurance. You know, it's no surprise that a lot of those countries that do have better rates, that do have higher rates of midwifery, have not nationalized healthcare. So they're not beholden to insurance companies and having to fill out X, Y, Z forms and referral or whatever it is, you know they have their issues as well. There's no perfect system we have yet to figure out with healthcare, but it's better than what we got. It just is. It just
Britta Bushnell
- In so in in many ways for sure. And there there is this some of what I think your book does is start to unpack some of the systemic issues that press down on birth in this society and in this country that make it difficult, or or what what am I really trying to say here is that that amplify the disconnect between what it is that is desired and wanted by so many individuals giving birth and what they're actually receiving,
Avital Norman Nathman
right? But it could be right. Like it could be so much better. Like there's still going to be your blood pressure does something funky, or your uterus decides not to contract, or there's so you know what I mean? Genetics come into play. We cannot control for those.
Britta Bushnell
Absolutely,
Avital Norman Nathman
there are hundreds of things that can happen, but and this is the point of the book. We can't even get to that point because we have so many other roadblocks and challenges to face, That we can't even face those unexpected what ifs because we have so many oh those to face first.
How the Myth Has Changed Over Time
Britta Bushnell
Yeah. Well, and so there's there's there's the inherent unknowability of birth that comes from the physicality, the animal nature of of birthing, coming from bodies that are not machines. Nope. So, so that piece is inherently already unpredictable, and then we also add in there are unpredictable aspects about the kind of care we're going to receive, the kind of equity that's available to us based on how we look, how much you know who are what our family configuration is, what language access to, what language we speak, what insurance we have. If we have insurance, I mean, the the there's so many different so many factors that can influence how how we how we face the unexpected and the the unpredictable, and there's a a piece. What I want to what I'm what I'm wanting to get us to is also that you you had your baby almost 20 years ago. I gave birth 26 years ago for the first time, and things some things have. Changed some for the better and some not for the better, and in regard to talking about the myth of perfect birth or the perfect birth myth, that feels like it has concretized in a way that seems different than it did 26 years ago for me, like there. It's it's, and I'm wondering if you came across any of that in your research. And
Avital Norman Nathman
I think a lot of it also has to do with our access to information, right? So when I was pregnant, it was mommy blogs. There's social media was Very nascent phones were still bricks. We were not, you know. You texted if maybe, but you only called people after a certain time. Like it wasn't. There were there were rules
Britta Bushnell
about connectivity.
Avital Norman Nathman
Exactly. You did not have a computer in your pocket, and so, but but it was not just books, right? So there were tons of mommy blogs, and it was hard to parse information from misinformation from opinion, and so you kind of had to do it a lot on your own. And now it's almost overstimulation of information, and who has the loudest voice and who has the biggest audience, and not necessarily those don't necessarily provide the. We we've seen reports and studies that you know ops exist, like as conspiracy theory as it sounds, but bots and all that, like just because someone's the loudest voice in the room doesn't mean it's the most accurate and trustworthy voice in the room, and that's unfortunate because there are people that solely get their information now from social media, right? They're not hitting the books, they're not even hitting the blogs, they're not hitting news sources, and so, well, I saw a 12-minute video clip that if I do this or I don't do this, my baby will X, Y, Z, and you know, maybe there's a kernel of truth, but maybe it's actually harmful without any real information, or maybe for their situation, it's not the right move, and so I think that just adds to the fear because there is like, who do it? Do I trust this? There's too much information, and there, you know, as much as I am someone who just loves to absorb, absorb. Sometimes it's too much, and you don't know. And also, I think not to. How do I say this? Our ability to parse through information for accuracy has somehow gotten less over the years. And I say this as like a former high school social studies teacher. I remember having to explain why Wikipedia had just kind of come out at that time to my high schoolers wasn't a good source, and so not necessarily challenging, but scrutinizing the information we're getting and not just taking it at face value.
Fear Is Hungry for Information
Britta Bushnell
Right, right, and and so that the I I think I have a chapter that's called too much information in my book because there is just the accessibility. There's so much information that one of one of my former teachers, Clarissa Pinkola Estes, who wrote Women Who Run with the Wolves uses a phrase that at a workshop I was at many years ago that I glommed onto, and I was like, "Oh my God, that is amazing! Where she said, "Fear is hungry for information.
Avital Norman Nathman
Absolutely! Oh my goodness! Absolutely, that's great.
Britta Bushnell
So, fear is hungry for information. So when we are when we are fearful, when we are worried, maybe it doesn't even have the four letter fear word. It's it's just kind of worried or a little concerned. I don't know about that. Yes, right. Even just that, what is that hungry for? It's hungry for information. But then we go and we eat and we eat and we eat and we eat and we eat at the smorgasbord of information, and we can feel overstuffed.
Avital Norman Nathman
Oh my goodness! Yeah.
Britta Bushnell
And rather than actually quelling and calming some of the fear, it can actually amplify it.
Avital Norman Nathman
I mean, they call it doom scrolling for a reason. It's not like you know, lighthearted ground. It's rolling. Well
Britta Bushnell
said. Yes. Yeah, and yet it. I mean, it. It is kind of like eating at an all you can eat buffet. It there's a part of us that that can't really listen to our. Bodies about what what we're truly hungry for. I mean that that makes sense. And
Avital Norman Nathman
everyone, I mean, yes, birth goes a certain way, but everyone is so different, and our circumstances are different. I mean, you know, we talk about in the in the chapter on racism the concept of weathering, right? So you have a whole population of Americans, particularly Black individuals, who from birth, have had, for the most part, not just underwhelming, but have been undercared for by the healthcare system, and that's impacted their health, regardless of income or status. And so, that's going to play a part in their births, in their pregnancies. And you know, it's awful to say, but you know we don't seem to think about it until someone in the make you know a Serena Williams or a Beyonce and makes it a a sexy story for the news channels to pick up. You know I think a lot of people in the birth world talk a lot about this, but to break through into mainstream, like it has to be a really sad, upsetting, and you know, heaven forbid, a death even, and and that's so frustrating, and that's one of the reasons not to topic jump, but I want, I really intentionally wanted to start that chapter with a positive, joyful birth story, which I thought, which really it was like, and that came from the survey, which
Britta Bushnell
love that.
Speaker 6
Yes,
Britta Bushnell
yeah, because there there can be an overwhelm of negative stories that show up, and that's actually one of the things that you also talk about in the book about social media, and I think it's oh gosh, who is it? Is it now? I'm going to take a moment, Chris. You can cut this, but hang on. I was going to. I have the Jessica Zucker.
Avital Norman Nathman
Oh yeah, Doctor Zucker. Yeah,
Britta Bushnell
Doctor Zucker writes a lot about
Avital Norman Nathman
miscarriage and yeah,
Britta Bushnell
but talks about how. Let me just see if I can read this quote. It says, "While while it might not feel great, a bit of anxiety isn't necessarily a bad thing. It can make us more vigilant and encourage us to take actions to have a healthy pregnancy. But so many of us, raising my hand up high, are not are so good at stoking the fear and anxiety we already naturally feel. Oh, 100% But in
Avital Norman Nathman
talking, I was like, "Oh, you're just just just tag me next time. Like it's me.
Reframing Failure as Systemic, Not Personal
Britta Bushnell
Yeah, and and it doesn't help that the world around us compounds and fuels the innate feelings, and and then we live in a society that uses social media as a way of sharing experiences, and that the posts that go viral tend to lean toward the harrowing rather than the boring or routine.
Avital Norman Nathman
Exactly right, and so then we don't know that X amount of births actually are kind of boring, and I think that's one reason. Like mine was kind of boring. I had maybe a minute or two of whatever, so I'm a little detached in that sense. Like I don't have. I'm able to look at this topic kind of with a third person kind of point of view. Thankfully, right? But the one, the births that are traumatic, the ones that make the news, even ones on people's personal social media, the ones that get the most attention are the most harrowing, the most shocking, the most, and so it makes it seem so. There's two different things, like yes,
Britta Bushnell
but that's that's only part of it, right? Yeah, because that's only part of it, because then we also have the response to that, which is the positive birth stories only,
Avital Norman Nathman
right? And that pots, you know, toxic positivity is so. It's there needs to be a balance. Yes, that was another thing we got pushed back on. Was like, does the book have to be so scary? When like from from publishers, I'm like, you know what? If we could just like fix a few things in this country, no, it really doesn't have to be. But at the moment, like, yeah. Well, but is it
Britta Bushnell
scary or is it honest, or is it both?
Avital Norman Nathman
Both. That's scary. Yeah. So honest, and it's not to scare people. It's just to. I did it to show it's not all on you. It's take the weight off your shoulders. This is already an intense emotional moment in your life. It is. It's it's it's when you'll never forget, and it's not all on you, even though it's happening to you,
Britta Bushnell
which I think is such an important piece because you you talk about feelings of failure that are often personal feelings of failure, and I I got the impression in the book that you're an. Talking a lot of the systemic and systems base. I mean, that's what systemic.
Speaker 7
What
Britta Bushnell
the systemic aspects?
Avital Norman Nathman
These larger aspects. Yes, these
Britta Bushnell
larger
Avital Norman Nathman
control
Britta Bushnell
that are influencing, and yet we tend to blame ourselves so often, and that you're you're kind of speaking to that in a way that helps calm that a little bit, or speaks kind
Avital Norman Nathman
of to to have people give themselves grace that yes, okay, if the only thing you're doing in your pregnancy is drinking, like you know the big gulps, and when you don't have to be whatever. Maybe there's an issue, but for the most part, people maybe we talk a lot about maternity care deserts. People live in food deserts, so you're going to eat what you have access to, and that is not your fault. And so,
Britta Bushnell
yes, okay, but you just used a term that you use differently in the book, so I'd love you to unpack that for me. It's not my
Avital Norman Nathman
term, right? Like I know,
Britta Bushnell
but share it in. Two years
Maternity Care Voids Are Not Natural
Avital Norman Nathman
ago, I saw someone say that on LinkedIn that they had watched a talk from a nurse, and I wish I could like follow those dominoes to who originally came up with this. But the idea is, and it's because we use this term, Desert to to talk about places where there's a lack of care. Deserts are naturally occurring. They're out. They're naturally thriving in their own way. They haven't. They're an ecosystem. They're not man made. Maternity care voids. We've created them. March of Dimes just like a week or two ago came out with their latest study. It hasn't gotten any better in the last 10 years. In fact, it's got marginally worse. And again, it's not because we don't know why. We know exactly why. It's because states are not funding. Are you know, are not. They're either cutting funding or they're no longer funding hospitals. Hospitals see maternity wards as loss leaders because they need to be fully stocked and staffed, and they don't necessarily need all that stuff all the time. So they are very expensive to keep on. And so, if you've got a hospital and you want to keep the doors of the hospital open. You gotta, you know, what goes first? It's maternity wards. And so
Britta Bushnell
these voids are happening where folks can be hours and hours away from where they can get care, or they'll
Avital Norman Nathman
or their care is reduced to going to an emergency room where that is not where a delivery should take place, right? Or being forced to see just like maybe a GP, a general provider for prenatal care, which is a you know it's still some form of care, but it's not specialized care for some from someone who is has studied for your particular you know situation,
Britta Bushnell
yeah,
Avital Norman Nathman
and but again, we caused these things because we talked about these states that have the worst rates of maternal care. They are the ones that have the most restrictive rules of midwives. You can't have a freestanding birth center without a doctor and without this stuff. Oh, you mean a hospital? So you want me to build a hospital as a freestanding birth center makes no sense, and so places where people really want to provide care don't have it, and so they have these bigger gaps in care, and then higher rates of preterm labor, lower birth rate for the babies, higher rates of maternal mortality. I mean, anything that can go wrong is going to go worse in these areas. It's just, but again, it's not naturally occurring. So when we call them deserts, and same with anything like a food desert, any of those things as well, they're not naturally occurring. Policies, people, money, all made choices to put make them like that, we can reverse them. We know what to do. We're just choosing not to,
Britta Bushnell
right? Right. So, so there's clearly well, and and as it should. I mean, it's really important. It's it's important to talk about and important to know about, and when we're talking about, it's like I wanna, I wanna kind of draw a line now from you know the myth of the perfect birth, and we kind of unpack in your book, or in your book, you really are unpacking kind of all of these things that are making birth hard, yeah, making birth challenging, and then you arc into a chapter on solutions.
Avital Norman Nathman
Yeah, I didn't want it to be all doom and gloom, and I also very specifically for the right before that chapter, there's also a chapter called "Pushing Back" that highlights the people and organizations that are doing the work. Right, so it's not like yeah, a lot of stuff is happening, a lot of crap is happening. There are people who have been working hard. We don't maybe know about them or hear about them, and I wanted to highlight them: midwives, doulas, advocates, activists, doctors, people who really have been on the ground doing the work, not looking for their name in lights. But if we could just replicate that everywhere, right? I think of Southern Perth Justice Network, who's got a mobile unit, right? Otherwise, there are people they they're in Florida, specifically Miami County. People might have to take three busses to get to a doctor's appointment. That could take an hour just to maybe go how many miles? Are they going to do that when they have to start getting like weekly care? No, they're not. So what did these people do? This amazing group of midwives literally got a mobile van together and brought the care to these communities, and kudos to them. And it really is communities taking care of each other, right? If we see the government, we see state state legislators aren't going to do it. It's people taking care of each other, and that's really going back to how it was before these communal, like birth as a Communal activity,
Practical Ways to Push Back
Britta Bushnell
yeah. So, so what the the who's doing what and the the pushing back the group of people that you identify as the people on the ground with their shovels tilling the soil to plant new seeds, I think is fabulous, and everyday folks can do things as well. What? Yeah. What? What do you like? Let's let's take it two different. I I tend to have two different populations who listen. So we have the birth professionals and we have the parents. And I'd love to hear like when you're speaking to parents who are expecting and looking at their journey through labor, birth, and into new parenthood, what do you want them to know? And what what can they do? Like, what can they do around a birth plan? What can they do around picking their team, that this research and these surveys helped you to identify.
Avital Norman Nathman
Yeah. So for every chapter, we do. So one chapter is called pushing back, and then at the end of every chapter, we have a pushing back section, and and it's not to say if you do these things, everything will go perfectly. It's to say here are some things you can do to help support yourself, support others, and and we have so we do it for three segments. We do it for folks who are pregnant. We do it for providers, and we do it for just the general public. Like if you love pregnant people, here's what you can do because there, you know, there's stuff at every level. So, for instance, the chapter on fear, right? We actually have a bunch of solid, specific things you can do. One of them is avoid Doctor Google. I think we all kind of fall into that hole, but it's like if you have a question, reach out to your provider. That's what they're there for. Don't think you are a burden. That is literally their job. They want to answer your question, so you're not coming to them with misinformation or disinformation that they then need to break you of. And maybe you'll find out something that, like I said, a standard of care there that you didn't even know. Ask questions is another one. I think a lot of the times when we don't ask questions, that can stoke fear, and so just asking them might be a relief a little bit, and stop. At least for me, I know if I have a question, then I have another question, and it builds upon and builds upon. But if I, you know, I have a chance to get that out, or even voice the fear, it can be really helpful. And when I hear it out loud, it kind of takes away the power of that fear, I love this. So I'm reading off this list from this one. Make a list of the people in your life who are soft landing spots that you can count on. I think we forget that we do have people that want to show up for us, even if in the moment it can. You know, even if you find two people,
Britta Bushnell
yeah,
Avital Norman Nathman
two people that you know you can call or text when you're having a really awful day, and even if it's just saying, you know, you have a word with the person, and they send you a funny meme to get your mind off of it, or a funny clip of something.
Britta Bushnell
Have those real life interactions connect
Avital Norman Nathman
absolutely? Just go and like cry on your friends. Couch while she folds laundry, like it's they'll come to you at some point too. Like it really does help. And oh, for this chapter, we also include a list for partners specifically, right? Which
Britta Bushnell
is another great place to have some support. Yes,
Avital Norman Nathman
and and so one of the things is offer to help, right? Sometimes
Britta Bushnell
need
Avital Norman Nathman
what help you need can be frustrating or overwhelming. So we say offer to help instead, not be like what can I do. Be like oh I see dishes on the counter, maybe I'll do those, or I see paperwork that hasn't been filled out. Maybe I'll take a look at that, and maybe I can help fill out some of that paperwork to help relieve that burden? Maybe there's something you know my partner doesn't want to address in it yet, or there's some block that's causing it. Maybe I can help get that started, and just listen. I think a lot of partners maybe want to fix, and sometimes we just want someone to listen to us. And so, and then Deb, who worked with me on the book midwife for many decades. Really comes and helps out and talks about like what providers can do. Maybe it's something like taking a complete, a more complete personal history because maybe there is something that might flag. Oh, this patient is going to need a little bit more care in this arena, or this patient is going to want some more education or information about this, and it could be something that then avoids a bigger deal later on, right? One of them, the Dr. Saida, who is someone that we interviewed, loved. Yeah, well,
Britta Bushnell
I know her from LA.
Small Things That Actually Help
Avital Norman Nathman
Oh yeah, yeah. She's LA LA provider. Yes. Encourage home visits. That was something I was not aware of, and because I did sign out AMA again, I could not like stand. I wanted to be in a hospital for safety, but I couldn't stand the sight smells and sounds, and so I did get out. You know, we were all checked off and signed out, okay. But they were like, "Oh, your insurance is going to cover a nurse to come visit you. I was like, "What? Do I have to pay for this amazing thing? No, it's it's part of because you're leaving. We'll have them cover. She'll check you. She'll check the baby. It was phenomenal, and she came and spent like I would say at least a half an hour like explaining to me about the umbilical cord and what what was normal or not normal, and I was like, why can't everyone have this? Even if they stayed at the hospital for two or three nights, this is incredible. And then odds are, I you know, I I asked a bunch of questions that then made me feel a lot better, a lot safer as a first-time parent, especially. I got to have a professional watch me hold my baby in my house. That gave me some confidence, which is
Britta Bushnell
different. It is different than than in a hospital setting. There's, it's like, how are you actually doing things in your own home? Is something pretty special to be able. Is my baby actually
Avital Norman Nathman
suffocating? Because I'm wearing them in a wrap. Because the person behind me at the Whole Food store 100 said they were, which caused me to have a panic attack, and then both me and my baby were sweating by the time we got back to the car. Real story. They were.
Britta Bushnell
You are not alone with that real story. They were
Avital Norman Nathman
because no one's seen a wrap or whatever, but they were like, "Oh, that baby must not be able to breathe, and it's like no they're doing just great, and you woke them up so thank you because I'm like no you're taking a lap off it. This poor baby was just like I was in my warm cocoon. Why did you wake me? Yeah,
Britta Bushnell
that was so like where I just came from, like that that
Avital Norman Nathman
exactly exactly, and then but me as a first-time mom, cut to you know my baby's two, and I'm like chucking them on my back, wrapping them up to go for a walk. Very different, you know. But as a first-time parent, can you breathe down there, little guy? I don't know. Yeah, well, because
Britta Bushnell
again, we're coming back into that place of fear and stoking of fear. Exactly, and this person wanted to be helpful.
Avital Norman Nathman
I'm assuming they don't, you know.
Britta Bushnell
Of course, I mean, it's it's coming. Was it from a
Avital Norman Nathman
place of like I don't know, who knows?
Britta Bushnell
Yeah, it's often coming from a place of concern and care, but it doesn't necessarily land in a way that is easy to receive it like that.
Avital Norman Nathman
No, especially again, I was a couple of weeks postpartum, and you know, my bing bing bing, my hormones were like what? Oh no! So yeah, there are lots of ways. Yes, there are a lot of concrete ways or things you can try, right? Even for the worst in the world chapter, we talk about ways to mimic other countries. You know, Finland's. Oh, I'm sorry if you heard that. That was my dog. That you know mimic ways that they get a birth box. Birth box. Make your own. Grab a laundry basket when you have a, you know, if you're gonna have a baby shower or something like that. Toss a bunch of things that you would get if it was if we were Finland. And yeah, I mean the. Laundry basket was actually my son's favorite place to hang out for those first couple months. We didn't have a lot of stuff, but I was like, "Huh. Then I would take the basket, move it into the kitchen when I was going in there, and then I'd move it back into the living room while I was folding laundry. And
Britta Bushnell
you know, different things work in different ways. Baby in a box, right? Is the the birth box where it's like, who knew I was
Avital Norman Nathman
just like Finland?
Britta Bushnell
Yeah, the box actually is then utilized as a place for baby to safely sleep. So, although I
Avital Norman Nathman
should note that now Finland offers either the box or cash. Could you imagine if our country did that? Man, I know. Here's some money to help you, but we're not even going to let you get paid time off work. The
You Are Never Alone
Britta Bushnell
reality is, there's so much in your book, and I recommend that anybody that is curious or interested or or wants to make a difference in the state of birth in this country, this book is a great read for you to be able to get some ideas of not just how it is, but what can be done and how we can do it. So, where can people find you and your book? Like, do do a little spiel for us, Avigdal. Yeah.
Avital Norman Nathman
So I am on the interwebs as the Mama Festo on Instagram, on Threads on Facebook. I don't use social media probably properly. It's mostly a place where I rant and rave, and this last week mourned the deaths of Dolly Parton and Tim Curry. I know this will come out a few weeks later, but man, what a hit to Gen X and just people who love culture.
Britta Bushnell
Oh boy, double whammy for sure.
Avital Norman Nathman
It's been rough, but I'm there. So if you want to, you know, hear me get angry about maternal health, but then also kind of really dig deep into love is blind, come find me. My website is themamafesto.com, and and your
Britta Bushnell
book is my book
Avital Norman Nathman
is the perfect birth myth, the
Britta Bushnell
perfect birth and industry.
Avital Norman Nathman
Yes,
Britta Bushnell
and it's
Avital Norman Nathman
available where all books are sold. Oh, and for your listeners, if they go to the Bloomsbury website, they can get 20% off with code Birth Myth 20.
Britta Bushnell
Excellent. There you go. And when this podcast airs, your book will have just come out, so go check it out. So I like to end my conversations with the same question to all of my guests. So I'd love to share it with you. Are you ready for me? I think so. Here we go. Okay. So, what's one thing that you feel passionately about that you want new or expectant parents to see, hear, feel, or know during this profound period of their lives? And I know you just wrote an entire book that probably answers that in some way. But if there's one thing that feels that you're particularly passionate about, what would that be?
Avital Norman Nathman
You're not alone, and share your story. I think those are combined, right? It's one thing. When people hear other people's stories, they're like, even if they're not exactly the same, but people are having those same weird thoughts you're having. People are having those same oops moments that you're having. People are making the same mistakes. People are having the same joyful moments. You are not alone, and it can feel so isolating being a new parent sometimes. But there are other people out there. We just got to find them.
Britta Bushnell
Yeah, I love that. Thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate you sharing your wisdom, and thank you for writing your book, and thank you, listeners, for sharing this time with us. If something shared today impacted, supported, or moved you, please share this episode with a friend. I produce this podcast myself, and your support makes it possible to show a little love for the podcast and these conversations. Please follow, rate, and review. If you'd like to continue the conversation, please join us on Instagram at Transform by Birth. I look forward to being with you again on the next episode of Transformed by Birth. Now let's gather what we want to take away from this episode on an inhale, and with our exhale, I'll blow out the candle. Until next time, bye friends.
About Dr. Britta Bushnell
is a writer, teacher, storyteller, and mentor who blends her eclectic training, years of experience, and areas of study into a unique offering for individuals, couples, professionals, and groups. Britta is currently deep at work writing her forthcoming book, Transformed by Birth: Illuminating cultural ideals to enhance the experience of childbirth.