The Rite of Passage of Becoming a Father

Introduction and Welcome

Britta: Hello folks, and welcome to Transformed by Birth, a podcast about rites of passage and pregnancy, birth and new parenthood. I'm your host, Britta Bushnell, author, mythologist, childbirth educator and all around deep diver with a side of goofball. I'm so glad that you're here. Welcome.

Today's episode is all about dads. So grab your cup of tea or take us for a walk as we dive into the rite of passage of becoming a dad with Dan Doty. Before we begin, we start the way that we always do by lighting a candle. If you want to join me, please do. And if you don't have a candle handy, just take a breath with me as I light mine. Today's candle is for dads.

Dads hold a special place for me on the journey through pregnancy, birth and new parenthood. I love working with dads. I remember when I was pregnant with our first child, how badly I wanted my husband to show up for me and our child, very specifically and in many ways, and what I wanted from him was really for him to be a second me. I wanted him to do what I would do, either for me or for our family, and when he was himself instead, I got frustrated. It took me time to make more space for him to be himself and to be the parent that he was meant to be, rather than a carbon copy of me. Do you feel me?

But much of that was about my journey, and Brent had to figure out how to show up for me, show up for himself, and become the father he wanted to be, and that was his unique and personal rite of passage. The transformation of becoming a father often gets relegated to side conversations at most, so as to not overshadow what's going on for the birthing parent. And while I get that and understand the desire, we're asking a lot of dads these days. Gone are the cigars in the waiting room and 1950s fathering expectations. These days fathers are asked to advocate in the labor room, support emotionally through challenges and co-parent equitably with all the things. If we're asking disaster—all these things of dads these days, we have to prepare them and support them appropriately.

That's where today's guest comes in. Dan Doty has been working with men and boys for 20 years as a wilderness therapy guide, a men's work leader and an executive coach. As the founder of Fatherhood Unlocked, he is helping bolster the mission of supporting dads to step up and be fully engaged and powerful co-leaders of their families. It's work like Dan's that is reshaping how men are supported to become dads. Welcome, Dan.

Dan: Thank you for that amazing intro. Wow. Just feel like I got a big gift there. Thanks.

Defining Rites of Passage

Britta: Well, this is the conversation we're having, and I love that. When I was revamping this podcast, having you on was definitely right in the top of my list, because our work overlaps really beautifully. You and I are both passionate about rites of passage, and your work is specifically about the rite of passage of becoming a dad. So before we jump in, let's not assume that everybody speaks the same language. Can you talk about what rite of passage means to you, and what is the rite of passage of becoming a father?

Dan: Yeah, beautiful. The word that comes up first, as you ask that is maybe slightly technical, but it's threshold experience. But to unpack that a little bit, the way that I interpret, or I guess experience rites of passages is that it is a moment or phase or series of moments in our life where there is sort of a clear stepping from one place into another place.

I guess, just to make it really relevant to me now, literally, two days ago, my wife and I packed up our three kids, our two cats and our dog, and we drove across the country to land in a new place, and I'm experiencing right now what feels like a very clear stepping into a new chapter of my life, and it's coming on the end of a midlife crisis. So I feel like I've been going through one of my rites of passage, a very clear rite of passage, for about a year, and the results of it, I feel like I just kind of got off the boat.

Britta: Right on time to step into a new one.

Dan: Oh, exactly yes. Let's wrap up this midlife crisis, and then I'll move and then go through another rite of passage. You know, I guess the historical answer, or maybe the more common answer, I think, if I interpret it, is that a rite of passage is the marking and the honoring and the support and what is needed for an individual to grow into their next stage of maturation in their life.

And I've been doing this very distinctly with boys and men for a long time, in the moment of our history, in our world where these—how do I want to say this? It's been such an interesting adventure for me to do what I can to create these authentic passages, these authentic containers, these authentic experiences for people that does the job or attempts to do the job of what cultures and communities did across the world for time immemorial.

So, yeah, it's something I have a lot of curiosity and passion for, is asking these questions of how we make these deep, important human moments and growth opportunities in the midst of our—I mean, fucking bonkers world. Let me just be real straight about it. It's such a wild time to be a human. It's such a wild time to be a dad.

The Rite of Passage of Becoming a Father

Britta: So taking that definition, can you extrapolate it to the journey of becoming a father, and what is transitioning? What's happening, and why are we even having this conversation about this these days, when we haven't talked about that even in some of those world tribal or ancient cultures, becoming a dad was not something that was spoken about or took a lot of energy. So why are we talking about it now? And what is it?

Dan: Within the last generational shift from my dad's moment to my moment of becoming a father, like you said so eloquently in your intro, the expectations and the role of fatherhood here, in this little bubble that we inhabit, of the Western world, of the United States, at this time, there is a—I think a historic change, like, truly, like on the human level, like historical level, an identity and role shift of dads, sort of having the permission and the opportunity to lean into how I see it, our humanity—our like a fuller breadth of our humanity by really being full partners to our partners, really being full caregivers.

And so I think it's probably fair to say that becoming a dad was always a rite of passage or a huge transitionary moment. If I were to name what I think the biggest core piece is that what can happen for a man, what often happens for a man—it doesn't have to happen—is that for the first time in our lives, we are actually shown that we are not the center of the universe, that we are not the most—there's a Copernican revolution that happens in our psyches, and it may be even in our souls, where we just get out of our own way, maybe for the first time, where something like our hearts open, and our children or our family sort of comes to the center position of what we care about, of what's most important, and it is a trip. It is an absolute trip.

And so I think that's one of the deeper levels of what's really shifting for a man. And like I said, I think I've talked to my dad at length about this, and he definitely went through a big shift when he had me, his oldest child. And there was something that happened. But today, dads who are becoming dads right now, really have like a substantial level of expectation on them, both from themselves and from the outside. That is, I think, sort of like condensing this rite of passage into something that's really defined, really sharp, and has a lot of consequence for our partnerships and for our families in general, in a way that it didn't always. I giggled when you said the cigar thing. I'm like, yeah, that is so not the case.

Britta: I mean, that is just nowhere near what is being expected of dads today. I think when I work with partners in my childbirth classes, there's an awareness that it was only 50 years ago where that was what was happening in childbirth spaces, it was super unusual for men to be in the labor room, in the birthing room, and now they're expected to be so much.

Dan: It's super short. And so one of my mentors is an author named Jed Diamond. He's written a lot of books about men and men's mental health and things like that. He literally had to fight his way into the birth room. He had to actually physically move someone out of his way. And I think this was the 60s. This was like 64 or something like that. I mean, that's 70 years ago now, so it's not like brand new, but yeah, and I think it's hard to find the right words to really capture the level of momentous difference this is.

The Skills Gap for New Dads

And so what we're really keyed into, is capturing a vision or an image of what's happening now, and kind of defining it in a few different ways. One is this deep inner change, this deep rite of passage, that soul level, identity level, and then there's also this practical level, which is just—I like to call a skills gap. There's a massive skills gap that dads are running into when their partner gets pregnant, when birth happens, when they're in the postpartum and fatherhood, and these skills are teachable. They're learnable, they're trainable, but they're of the relational nature, they're of the embodiment nature, they're of the connective nature, they're of the caregiving nature.

And this is—it's wild. It is, I think it's beautiful. It's one of the things I'm most excited about here, because I think this is an opportunity for men to really get in touch with parts of themselves that isn't only good for their kids and their partner, it's good for them in a really meaningful way, but it's a challenge. It's a big, broad sort of set of capacities and skill sets that we've literally gone our entire life without being exposed to or being expected of us. And it's like, I'll end my rant with this, but I say this often—it feels to me like being asked to play in the Super Bowl having never played football in my life. That might be a little dramatic or a little hyperbolic, but there's something about that image, to me that actually lands, because we're stepping up to this biggest thing in our life and having literally no experience or even exposure to what we're headed into.

Britta: Yeah? And in many ways, that's setting a lot of new dads up for failure rather than success. And then wondering why they're struggling or having a difficult time? Well, in that 50-60 years of rapid change in expectation, the preparation process has not kept up, and the cultural conversation has not kept up. And there's not mentors. Our own father figures may not be able to speak to us about what is expected in a way that is connected to these newer expectations.

Dan: And what I want to add to that Britta, what I'm so appreciative about you and our ability to dialog about this is also, I think, what I want to just name and put on the table. There's an immense amount of really pissed off women and really underwhelmed women out there who want much more, like you said in your intro, who are wanting and expecting much more from their partners. And I don't know that we have a layer of separation to talk about that very cleanly and directly. I think it's really important.

One thing we're aware of is that there's so many Facebook groups and women's pregnancy support groups and what we have learned is that there's a large percentage of that ends up being just like a place for women to vent about their partners not showing up. And we really—here, like I have 20 years working with men, if I know one thing about men, we want to do well, so bad we want, like, an overwhelming yearning to show up in a way that's helpful and supportive. And so the desire is there, and I know that, and so we're just hoping to be a bridge between these things.

Identity vs. Skills: Becoming vs. Learning to Father

Britta: So I'm hearing you speaking about the transition of becoming a father, both from an identity place and a skills-based perspective. So it's about both becoming a father and learning to father. And they aren't necessarily the same thing, but they can happen in tandem.

Dan: Yeah, yeah. And they're inextricably linked. And, you know, it's interesting. So my background leans more directly toward the becoming a father. My background tends to be in the deeper layers of things. But what I've learned in this process in the last couple of years doing this work with expecting and new dads, is that there does seem to be that the skill set and the ability to make your way through this—my current assessment is that a level of address needs to be placed there first in order to have some space and some spaciousness so that's part of the doorway. It seems to be that way.

Britta: That makes a lot of sense. Culturally speaking, societally speaking, there's an ease with the doing, rather than the self-reflection. I mean, that's just what we're all more generally comfortable with. And I notice with the folks that I work with in my work, often, particularly the men who come into the work are looking for guidance, looking for that desire you spoke about around how deeply and desperately they want to do well they are looking for "tell me steps one through 10 of what I can do to be successful at this," which is a different conversation then "talk to me about the radical personal transformation that is occurring in my psyche."

Dan: Well, I mean, you're nailing it. And so this is, it's fun to have this conversation in this moment, because we're marking one year of our Fatherhood Ready sort of world. Exactly one year we've been out and we've had—so we have two main ways we serve dads and families right now. We have the "just tell me what to do" piece, which we called our Baby Prep HQ, and it's just that. It's just a list. It is a master shopping list. It's a master to-do list, line by line all through pregnancy. It's a master packing list. It's a financial prep count. It is the doing piece, and it is simple and it's direct.

And what we found is that it does seem if an expecting dad can breathe a little bit to know that he has something to mark along the way, something to measure against, it makes some room for what our deeper offering is, which is our main course. But that's both practical stuff, but also opportunity for deep, sort of connective conversations with your partner and deep inquiry about your own fathering, and who you want to be, and intention setting, and like the stuff that makes a really big difference and but takes more time, and isn't top of mind. It's that. And I think you can only kind of access that sometimes, if you have some of your boxes checked.

Britta: And I love that you are identifying and addressing and meeting dads in that place of "it makes sense that you need some guidance. Here's some guidance, and the desire for that guidance is actually coming from the place of uncertainty that comes when we cross a threshold that is profound and important to us." Part of what is happening is they are hungry for that guidance and those answers because it matters. It matters to them, so they want to get it right. If they didn't care, they wouldn't be asking for those suggestions and those bullet points.

Dan: I wonder if people understand actually how much it matters to men. I think there may be a gap there.

How Much Fatherhood Matters to Men

Britta: Talk to us about it from your perspective of what you know and see in somebody who specializes in working with men.

Dan: Yeah, well, I've had the fortune to get to know and to work with thousands of dads at this point, and I make sure to ask every single one of them at some point along the course, "what is the thing? What is the main thing in your life? What is the if everything else paired away, what's left?" And I've never had a dad not answer, "my family, my children, my role as a dad, it is the central thing."

And I'm sure there's, statistically, the dudes who come to me are a certain set of dads, and they're leaning in intentionally anyway, but it is, by far and away, the most important and sacred thing in pretty much any man that I ever meet. It is the most important thing in their life. And it just—even when I say that now, it causes me sort of an interesting reaction, because the amount of support and attention and time we spend on that—it's just like if it is the most important thing, why the fuck aren't we talking about it? Why do we not have things in place?

And it's not—that's my own thing, and it's not productive to go there. But there's just, I just want to point out the massive gap that in the actual hearts of men, which aren't often expressed, let's just be honest, and maybe that's changing, and in certain places that's different. But guys' deeper truth often remains buried inside. But when you set the conditions for that deeper truth to emerge and to be out there, I can guarantee you what it is for pretty much any dude that has a child, it is that, and it's nothing but that.

Britta: Yeah, beautiful. Thank you. In my 25 plus years of working with this population, mostly in couples format, I'm bowled over and often brought deeply into my own heart and my own emotions when I feel the level of commitment, hope, desire that is held within the partners who attend classes. Even if part of my opening circle is asking, "why this class, and what is it you hope to get out of this class?" Those are two of my beginning questions.

And "why this class" often is "because she told me this is the one I was supposed to attend, and I'm here." And to me, that is an absolutely legitimate response and answer, because within it is buried the deeper truth of "what it is that matters to her, matters to me." And "I want to be here and show up in a way that is truly supportive." So while it sounds like a throwaway response, it isn't. It isn't. It's actually speaking to something deeper.

Dan: Could I ask you a question about that? I'm curious on your opinion, do you think that there is a possible future where dads who are expecting on their own volition or by their own community or in their own life will or would start to—I don't know if I'm asking this right—but do you know what I'm asking?

Britta: I have already seen it start to happen. Yes, it is happening. It is beginning. I've been teaching classes since 2002—so what is that? 23 years—and back 23 years ago, that was not—the dads were not the ones who were finding my classes. But more and more that is true now. More and more that is true now. And even the expectant partners, fathers, who say to that first question, "why this class? Because it was the one that they signed us up for." When they answer the second question, "what is it that you want to get from this class," they have authentic personal desires that are theirs, that are about what it is that's missing for them, and they are able to identify, and that matters.

Dan: That's really important. That's cool.

Fatherhood as Modern Masculinity

Dan: One of the things that I like to sort of name and just celebrate about what we're talking about here, is that because what we're actually talking about, to me, branches out or has spokes that go out into such deep and meaningful and important topics that are happening in our world. And men in our culture, our boys are struggling with mental health and outcomes. And there's just a really big, I don't know, set of—we're in an acute time of confusion and turmoil for men and their identity in our culture today, there's a lot going on.

And why I bring that up is that I believe that when you take a descriptive look at a dad who has young ones and is leaning in and is just giving his best, imperfect and all of the works and all of the things. But I just, I really do believe that with that descriptive look at a dad who is probably working out of the house and really linearly engaged and trying to protect and trying to provide in the old school way, but then coming home and dropping down on the floor and being right there with his kid and doing his best with his relationship, just like really trying. My sense is that's just an incredible definition, or an aspirational definition of masculinity or manhood full stop.

And I think that when we talk about this as a rite of passage, I think I want to be careful to name also that it's not a clean thing. It's not like you go through a doorway.

Britta: Our understanding of threshold relates to doors, and we feel like that's a one step process, and that is understating what we're talking about here. It doesn't happen with the birth of the child.

Dan: No, no. It's a collective sort of adventurous mess of change that's always happening. But I do think what emerges here is, for me, like an image or an imprint that I feel like we can talk about, we can transmit. And this rite of passage allows dads this really—I think we're in an integrative moment, or the possibility of integrating so many things.

When I work with dads intensely or more deeply, we really do separate the doing and the being, and then sometimes the relating separately. You could call it masculine feminine, which I don't like to—you could call it all kinds of different things, but we really—I think what is so cool about this transition for men is that we get to, we have this challenging moment where we just really are finally—maybe for the first in our lives, finally have real accountability in our lives in a way that no outside other structure brings.

And so when I became a father, I had 10 years of men's work and meditation and mentorship under my belt. And when it came to the heart stuff, when it came to the connective, relational stuff, I felt pretty prepared. I still got my ass kicked. I totally got my ass kicked. But what I didn't have, which I think maybe might be reverse of the more norm is that I didn't know my head from my ass when it came to managing my money and investing, and I didn't have necessarily a clear plan set out for my career path and just the fullness of the expectations. And it's not just dads. I mean, it's moms too, and it's all parents. But there is a unique thing that dads are coming in with, where, historically and our programming, how we were raised, really does still come back to this protect and provide sort of basics. That's like the under-wiring that we have.

But this transition that guys are going through is just so damn exciting to me, because we both have to keep doing that, most of us, and we now have this opportunity and this need to slow the hell down to learn how to communicate, to learn how to be actually present with ourselves, to actually learn how to be present with the ones we love. And I mean, I like a big challenge. And I honestly, I don't know what's a bigger challenge than that. That's a lifelong challenge.

Common Fears Among Expectant Fathers

Britta: I love that you brought up this piece about the stability provider, that archetypal energy of helping to keep the home life safe, that archetypal energy that often falls on the partner, the non-birthing parent, and in our conversation, we're talking about that as dads. And it's interesting, because when I reflect on the work with couples that I do, so often, one of the things that we do is we talk about fears heading into birth, and most birthing parents have something that is about the birth process. They're worried about the pain, they're worried about a hospital. They're worried about losing control. There's some element that is very specific and isolated, and tends to be about that threshold cross moment specifically.

But that's different with dads. My experience has been that dads tend to have their fears are about kind of—I'm gonna say they kind of fall in one of three, which is fear of supporting and doing their best in labor and birth, like it's about their own ability to show up and do what it is that is expected for them, that feels big and huge performance—the performance of labor and birth. The second one I would say, is about that piece you were just speaking about, which is about, "holy shit, wait a minute. I'm now not just providing for rent and my house and myself and my half and my this, but now family building and all the elements of that archetypal energy that gets activated."

Like you pee on a pregnancy stick, and birthing parent is like, "whoa, okay," they're starting to think about these things. And I feel like for partners, it activates the provider in a different way. And then I would say the third fear has to do with fathering, and it tends to be inspired in my experience, by either a fear of being like theirs or a fear of failing to be like theirs.

Dan: I'm curious. Do you think it's skewed one way or the other? Like more in one direction versus—because I have my answer, but I'm curious.

Britta: I would say it's skewed more in the direction of fear of being like their father. But I've been really moved and touched by some of the most tender, present, curious, introspective men that I've ever worked with, their fear is the opposite—about not living up to the role modeling that they got.

Dan: I've tracked it over the years. About nine out of 10 is the first category, and one out of 10 is the second. And I mean, I think the hopeful way I like to spin that, or think about it, is that when I work with dads, I like to take them to an exercise where I have them sort of do a review of all the people that they know in their community and through their life, and to just think about what were the best examples of fathering that they've come across. And it makes for a very meaningful and deep discussion, and it pulls a lot of things to the surface.

And the example that I like to give is that my wife, her grandfather, was a farmer on Martha's Vineyard, and a long lineage of living on this island in the Atlantic Ocean. And there is something about—and it wasn't just him, and it was him and his wife, so my wife's grandmother as well. But there is something that that man left behind in and around his family and in the land that he tended and the community that he was a part of that still today, many years after his passing, it is such a—it is such a just like a shine or just a warm when people just even talk about him, they all get the same smile in their eyes.

And I like to share that story again, just as an aspirational marker, to know what the impact that a man can have on his family and his community, and not by being a superhero, and not by having to be any special thing, but just—I really think it's slowing down enough to assess and take stock of what's going on and leaning in, just leaning in as best as one can. So I just want to be careful not to set that up as like there's some special, unique blueprint to follow or anything you have to do.

But I think men are very motivated by legacy and knowing that they matter, and seeing that they can actually have an impact. There's a layer of separation between men in the world that's—I don't know, I make up, that has something to do with our biology. We're not the one that carries babies. And there's something there that's so important to a man to know that he matters. And I don't think most men, at least in our earlier years, we don't think of family as the place where we need to matter. We're so externally focused. Guys are, right? We think we have to go make our mark or do our thing or build this thing, and that's all true too. But there is something that's happening that I'm seeing happening where men are finding their place closer to home, and it's really beautiful.

Britta: And as you speak about your wife's grandfather and about the legacy sounds like it's about his existence in the world and the way he was from his heart, which is different than necessarily the empire building of business that is that place that tends to be often spoken about in that archetypal energy of that.

Partnership Dynamics and Co-Parenting

So I want to circle back to our very juicy conversation that we nearly stepped into that I think we need to go back to, if you're willing, which is the part about how much the energy is turning into men and partners wanting to really be there, and that is a shift, but there is a partnership piece there that is also not keeping up with that change, and that is speaking to the part of birthing parents, moms, the partners of men who are holding reins and control of the nurturing or the boss of the household energy that can actually make it pretty hard and challenging for our partners to actually succeed in the ways that we want them to. So we're kind of shooting ourselves in the foot while we're desperately wanting more support.

And I spoke about this a little bit in my intro, in that I remember this myself. My firstborn is now 25 so it's been a few years, but I remember wanting my husband to be a male version of parent, of how I parented, and that was actually setting him up to fail and setting me up for disappointment, and robbing our children of a different parent, which actually they benefit from.

Dan: So I think that the first thing to name there is that again, and we're hard at work trying to do this, but as the role of fatherhood changes, we are in the liminal space. Like, collectively, we're in a rite of passage with this. Communally, we're in a rite of passage with this. And there just isn't quite the definition that we can point to yet that says, "Okay, Dad, here is what you need to do. Here are my expectations of you."

I do think that that impulse that you're sharing about that many women are having, or birthing partners are having. It's good. It is like, at its core, it is good and beneficial. And it's like, "all right, dude, we need you to show up. All right, dude. We need something to be different. I need more." And in it, I think, is an expression of needs, which is great, like, we need that.

And I feel like where we're finding there's a gap that we're trying real hard to work with, is how we help, or how can that request or needs expression be shared in a way that actually motivates action, motivates change, motivates the coming together and having needs actually met. And so we actually to help us talk about this. We've been doing some surveying and quizzes, and we have about 1000 expecting moms who have done a big survey of ours now really all dialed in to learn about, how can we activate this crop of expecting dads to show up, and how can we empower you expecting mom to communicate effectively?

So one of the fun ways we've been doing this is we created a bunch of archetypes for expecting dads. The archetypes—one is the superstar dad. So that's the box that you checked, which is just like, "okay, he's nailing it." What we found so far is, out of about 1000, about 12% of expecting moms are calling their partner a superstar.

The next biggest chunk, about 50% of these expecting moms are saying they're calling it a "Mr. A for effort." Like, "man, he's showing up. He's trying, but it just misses the mark here, not really quite getting it," like, his effort is strong and his effectiveness could use some help. That's 50% which is cool, actually, that's huge.

The tiniest sliver is the Ghost Dad who just disappeared, which we don't like to talk about, but happens. And then there's the 1960s dad who is still kind of in that old school, 1950s or 1960s—he just doesn't see it as his job. Doesn't see it as his issue. So he's just off doing his cigar thing.

And then there's one called the "cool as a cucumber." And actually, this is about 25%—cool as a cucumber is like, he's there. He's doing his thing. He's connected, but he's just not maybe quite grokking the full impact of what's going on.

And so it's been really cool to start to have some feedback and what we're doing there with that survey and that quiz, is then offering these expecting moms some resources to send to their guy. Because that's what moms are asking us. They're like, "we want our dude to do what you're doing. How do I get him to do it?" And we're kind of sitting on the other side saying, "hey, we want your dude to do what we're doing too." So there's just like this little arithmetic problem we're trying to crack.

Britta: Yes, I definitely think there's a gap in that. And I've also—there's a gap in the communication, and there is also a lot of what's—I want to call it—a shoving of the responsibility onto partners, that is, and that pushing away, rather than reflecting in is, I think, adding to some of the challenge.

So I remember reading an article back when I was pregnant, 26 years ago, about learning to be a parent from the perspective of somebody becoming a mom. And that perspective tends to be, "I gotta figure it out. I gotta do it. I gotta—I don't know how to do this, but I'm a mom. I gotta do it. I gotta figure it out," and there's that energy of, "I just got to do it." And there hasn't been that same kind of expectation for men and dads and that there's a piece in that of, "oh, baby's crying. I don't know what to do with the baby right now, but you seem to figure it out, here," and that passing over rather than understanding, "oh, I'm a dad. I got to figure this out."

But what's happening is that I'm starting to see more and more dads go "I'm a dad. I gotta figure this out." And they're being rescued by their partner.

Dan: Oh, interesting.

Britta: Which is actually undermining their ability to get their own skill set of figuring it out.

Dan: That's... yeah, that's super interesting, you know. Both so my partner at Fatherhood Ready and father-in-law is John McBride, and both of us share an experience that I think is somewhat of our driving force behind this. And I'll just speak for myself. I don't speak for him, but it has been embarrassing to me. Personally, it has been a hard thing for me to go through, to realize in different fits and stages of... I love how you're saying it right? So mom just basically realizes she needs to figure it out. And it took me years to realize what that sort of like ground zero level actually meant, you know.

Like I feel like, as much as I tried to lean in, as much as I tried to be full co-parent, co-family owner, all of that, I think it is just probably how I grew up, and what how what I saw, or I'm not sure what it is, but it was really so humbling, so humbling all along the path, to be reflected that I wasn't showing up enough or wasn't doing enough, and then to try so hard to not get defensive or not protect myself, and actually take the feedback and then actually get it like, "holy shit. Yeah, that's right." And the many times that happened, it is really... it's kind of crazy. It's kind of crazy how... yeah, I don't know. I love how you helped clarify for me, how you just express that just like, "I'm the mom. I gotta figure it out."

The Challenge of Co-Parenting

Britta: Yes, yeah, there's... when we talk about co-parenting, co-parenting is a relationship based activity. It is a relationship based relationship, and we influence each other in being successful. So if one person is the CEO of parenting, the other one is never going to feel like they have autonomy to do it in their way. And there's this... and people talk about this all the time, but there's this metaphor and expectation that I kind of loathe, which is the idea of being on the same page.

I'm like being on the same page is so overrated. I do think it is really important to be in the same book and ideally in the same chapter. Like, can we agree on sort of the major guiding principles and values of our family? That matters, that's important, and how those are implemented may be different totally. There may be some variations, and that's challenging.

Dan: That's one of my favorite parts of our course. And what we offer dads is... we have different modules, and one of the modules is for a father to get his own vision of fatherhood, like, what kind of dad does he want to be? Have a chance to actually reflect and express that. And then we have a series of conversations to be done within the partnership, which is exactly what you're saying. Like, what are our family values?

To actually say, because I remember this for Elise and I, my wife, like, we had the conversations, but we had them sporadically. We had them in fits and spurts and I don't know that we ever sort of codified it with any formality to say, "okay, like, let's actually do this, right? Let's actually put something down here. Let's kind of make them work" and so that we can be changed. But when we get feedback from people who do our work, that come back and share their family values and like it is... it is really enjoyable. It's really cool to see and to know that's happening.

And I think, yeah, I love the distinction you're making, because most images or examples we have as dads of being a caregiver, they're overwhelmingly mothers, right? We just... it is yet to be the case that we know what it looks like, and we know what it means for a father to be in that role, right?

I actually think it's interesting. I think when you work one on one, or when you're right there in it, then it's not mysterious at all. It's really not, right? You just see a dad doing his thing. Like, I just see me with my kids, like, it's not confusing. But I think when we try to speak to it at a little bit of distance, with a little bit of context, or societal context, it starts to get a little unsure, right?

But the reality is, like, there's so many amazing dads doing such... like, my friends and my colleagues and even just the school my kids are a part of... like, you show up at a party and you see dads just absolutely killing it, you know, in such a free way, in an authentic way. And I hope we can... I hope that just kind of keeps getting broadcast, those examples and those true things, because it's so much good happening.

Britta: So much good happening. I agree completely. And while I could keep talking, and there's 1000 different things I want to keep engaging with you about, because I think the topic of fathers and partners is one that is underserved, as I said at the get go, is underserved. And so, of course, we can't complete the conversation in one hour, and you have this conversation as a big part of your platform and your work so people can engage with you to continue the conversation as well. So what do you want to share before we wrap up with our audience about your work?

Dan's Work and Resources

Dan: Yeah, you can find all of our stuff, all of our work or courses and our baby prep container, all at fatherhoodunlocked.com. Yeah, just to explain it just briefly, right? I think I said it in the interview, but we have for moms or expecting dads, for expecting moms, we have our very simple to-do checklist, which is where we tend to send people first, and then the deeper course of Fatherhood Ready course is a really substantial, deep dive on pregnancy prep and birth prep and postpartum prep.

And we have birth professionals and really wise people in there, in our course, helping us inform people correctly. We have a big module about strengthening your relationship before birth, which, personally, I think maybe if you do nothing else, I feel like might be the most helpful.

Britta: I love that. Yes, I think it's very important.

Dan: Yeah. And then finally, there's a big module for dads to really take some time to reflect on what kind of dad they want to be and what that means and what they're working with.

And then the last thing I would leave is, if there's any birth professionals or postpartum professionals listening, we are really excited to know you and to meet you and to learn from you and to support each other. We feel like we have a very aligned mission, right? We think if we can help activate the dads, everybody's life is going to be better. And so we do have an offer for birth professionals, and I'm sure it'll be put in the show notes, but for any birth professional that wants, we want to give you free access to all of our materials, and then also some free codes to share with clients, three free codes to share with any of your clients.

Britta: Yeah, we're super generous. So do tell us what that is. So folks can... what's the URL?

Dan: So it'll be fatherhoodunlocked.com/britta is where you can get access to that.

Britta: There you go. I love it. That's super generous. Thank you for sharing that.

Closing Question and Final Thoughts

Britta: All right, so it's time for us to start wrapping up, and that's a hard thing to do when we've had a juicy and rich conversation, and as we begin to bring the conversation to a close, I like to end with one question. So are you ready? What's one thing you feel passionately about that you want new or expectant parents to see, hear, feel or know during this profound period of their lives?

Dan: That if you take enough time to just be with your partner, with your new baby, with yourself, if you just protect the time that you will find in yourself, the capacity and the ability to meet the needs of what arises... the ability to meet your kids' needs, the ability to meet your partner's needs.

Just a quick story about what I'm saying here is I had a man I worked with earlier this year who had a family many, many, many years ago, and then recently is starting a second family, starting a new family. And he came to me because he wanted to do it differently this time. And in our first conversation, he told me about he was going to take a couple days off work and only take a few calls. And I just... he gave me the permission to be fully, fully blunt and open with him and he ended up instead taking five months off of his job, and the change in him, the deep rite of passage, the transformation, the things that are happening to him have been mind blowing to him.

And just, I guess, to frame this idea of rite of passage... like it doesn't happen in a short window. If you want the whole thing to actually happen, you have to take the time for it. You have to move at a human pace. You have to move at the pace of our flesh and bones. And so I know it's hard.

Britta: Even if you don't have the privilege of five months off, which this gentleman had, even if you don't have that privilege, to still take the slow time and give yourself, cut yourself some slack for...

Dan: As much as you can, as much as you can. Yeah, yeah.

Britta: I deeply, deeply believe that. That's beautiful. Thank you so much. So where can folks reach you?

Dan: Fatherhoodunlocked.com is our web presence. And then on Instagram, we're at @fatherhoodunlocked as well.

Britta: All right, Fatherhood Unlocked, it is. Thank you, Dan, so much, and thank you listeners for sharing this time with us. If something shared today impacted, supported or moved you, please share this episode with a friend. I produce this podcast myself, and your support makes it possible to show a little love for the podcast and these conversations. Please follow, rate and review. If you'd like to continue the conversation, please join us on Instagram at @transformedbybirth.

I look forward to being with you again on the next episode of Transformed by Birth. Now let's gather what we want to take with us from this episode, in an inhale and with an exhale, we'll blow out our candle.

Until next time... bye, friends, bye.