Reproductive Justice: A Framework for Liberation with Sabia Wade

Introduction and Welcome

Britta: Hello folks, and welcome to transformed by birth, a podcast about the rite of passage of pregnancy, birth and new parenthood. I'm your host. Britta Bushnell, author, mythologist, childbirth educator and an all around deep diver, diver with a side of goofball. I'm so glad you're here. Today's episode wades into the wildly important topic of reproductive justice. So grab your comfy beverage of choice or take us along for a walk as we connect with my friend and birth world badass sabia. Wade before we begin, we start the way we always do by lighting a candle. If you want to join me, please do or just take a breath as I light mine. Today's candle is for justice.

Introducing Sabia Wade and Reproductive Justice

Britta: As someone who spent years in birth work, I've come to understand that birth doesn't happen in a vacuum. It's deeply connected to systems of power, justice and liberation that extend far beyond the delivery room. The more I've learned about reproductive justice, the more I've realized how it touches every aspect of our lives, from how we parent to how we show up in the world. Which brings me to today's conversation with my friend sabia Wade. Sabia is a liberate liberatory leader, executive coach, doula, and the author of the wonderful book birthing liberation, how reproductive justice can set us free. Sabia doesn't just talk about birth work. They weave together social justice, ancestral wisdom and regenerative practices into frameworks that transform both individuals and communities through their birthing advocacy, doula trainings, B, A, D, T, for short and non profit for the village, sabia is reimagining what inclusive care looks like and how we can use liberatory practices to stay connected to ourselves as parents and human beings. Little personal note, sabia and I met in 2020 during a Business Mastermind with ash Robinson and Kimberly Ann Johnson, we were paired in a small cohort along with Jen Mayer of fully funded. Shout out to Jen, yes.

Britta: And so in our conversation today, we're going to explore how reproductive justice connects to everything in our lives, what truly inclusive care means, and how these practices can help us navigate parenthood without losing ourselves in the process. This is a conversation about birth, yes, but it's really about freedom and justice and how we can create more of it for ourselves and future generations. Lastly, I'm going to just say that I had the privilege of attending a program last year about sex and pairing and Perinatal mental health. Yes, those two things are connected. And sabia gave a talk titled, titled kink, a liberating practice for parents and whoa, folks. Was it an epic talk talk, and we are going to explore some of that today too. So buckle up, folks. Welcome sabia. I'm so honored and excited to be here with you. Thank you for joining you. Personal Connection and Book Journey

Sabia: I'm always excited to share space with you, and also personal note. When we were in our our like, three way, three way. Yeah, you and Jen, I was like, I'm gonna write this little book, and I'm gonna, like, put it out independently. And Britta was like, No, you're not. You're going to she was like, You need a book coach. I got you connected me to Nikki van der Carr. Then you were like, when you want to start looking at publishers, you're going to find someone to pay you to write this book. And honestly, if you would have never said that to me, I would have never thought that, and that's exactly what happened. So that's why you are a special part of my book journey. For sure,

Britta: I am honored to and just that's moving to here. And I mean, it's kind of I had people who did the same thing for me, and so I think that's part of what we all do right is we support each other and and and make sure that these voices that are so important are being heard, which kind of connects us in here today, like this. This connects isn't separate from the conversation we're having. So we're talking about justice. We're talking about reproductive justice. Can you it might be that that term reproductive justice, for some listeners, might seem like we're talking about abortion or access to health care like unpack that one first a little bit. Because it's bigger than what a lot of people think

Defining Reproductive Justice: The Three Core Principles

Sabia: is way bigger. I mean the three points and we define it is the right to have children, the right to not have children, right by choice, and then also the ability to parent your kids and safe and sustainable communities. And I think, you know, when we think about the rights to have children, people like, oh, birth, right? Like, okay, I got that, like, access to health care, those kind of things to not have children, okay? Abortion access, even abortion access, yes, but also the choice to say, like, I want to have a hysterectomy now, yes, right? Like, I want to do that now, right? And people not saying, Oh, well, how old or how many kids do you have? Because, like, you might not want to do that.

Sabia: Literally, I took 10 years to get a hysterectomy. Marge I had, like, fibroids and stuff like that. But it was because at 27 when they asked me because my quality of life was in the trash, I was like, well, maybe when I hit my 30s, I'm going to want children. I never wanted children. And then I, like, 10 years later was, like, I still didn't want children, like, if only I had, like, a different version of that story around minor knowing. But anyways, and then you have the ability to, you know, safely parent your children in sustainable communities, right? And so now we're talking about sustainability and safety, right? We're not talking about just physical safety, but psychological safety. We're also thinking about the water that you drink, right? We're also thinking about having access to jobs, or also thinking about, like, there's so many things when we talk about parenting a child, because parenting a child requires taking care of the parent, right? It's not just about, do they have a daycare? Do they have diapers? It's also like, Can this parent be well, right? Because if we have a parent that can be supported, not since I attend, that just become a domino effect, and it's going to also, you know, become beneficial to that child. So when we think about reproductive justice, is really everything right? It's like when I talk about, in my book, I talk about transportation, right, being able to get from one place to the other, right? Do you have access to that? I live in a rural community now, no, right? We talk about different things, lactation. I live in a rural community now. There is no ibclcs. There are no doulas, right? So just thinking about like every aspect, even the way that you die, right? It's also part of reproductive justice, right? We think about because I also like the Deaf tool work, and it's like most people back in the day did not die in the hospital without at home, right? But now we have a funeral industry and a Deaf industry that makes money off of our bodies, right? It makes it impossible sometimes, to even have a decent burial. So like reproductive justice is literally everything in between, up, down and around. And that's why I love reproductive justice, because it was like, even though I started off my work, working as a volunteer do it with incarcerated people, I didn't think about people being pregnant behind bars. I also have to think about some people are in jail. Maybe they're in jail because they killed someone. Okay, things happen, all right, I don't know. I can't speak on that, but I saw a lot of my clients were near for survival work, right? I'm trying to feed my children because I don't live in a safe community. I don't have the resources. We don't have jobs here. We don't have like these things here. So I'm doing whatever I got to do, and now I find myself in jail, right? So it's just like, it's so all encompassing that it's just I didn't know 10 years ago that I would like fall so deeply in love that, like I'm just here to stay forever and ever whatever forms that I do. But I really do think that if we look at it and its principles and deeply think about and navigate and implement it can set us free.

Britta: so it's, it's a big term.

Sabia: things, if you were born, reproductive justice,

Britta: if you were born, and if you are going to die, reproductive justice so. So how does understanding this broad definition of reproductive justice change the way you have done birth work, new parenting work, postpartum work, like, how, how does because you, you said you started off with incarcerated folks, and then fell,

Sabia: Yeah, indeed, like, deep, deep, deep, deep, Xavier went deep folks, yeah,

Britta: yeah, to the point where you, you created B, A, D, T, which I do want to talk about. But What? What? How did this this? How does it change, knowing with this expanded definition?

How Reproductive Justice Transformed Birth Work Practice

Sabia: Yeah, I think once I was fully immersed in understanding like, birth doesn't have to be the main point. It can. It can be like this important piece. But you can also go backwards, and we can also go forwards, right? Like, I can talk to teenagers and tweens about pleasure and about their bodies, and that has nothing to do with them being in a birthing space. But that has everything to do with them being prepared to potentially have a birth or pregnancy or termination or child rearing at some point, whatever it may be, and so like, I was I started working with youth when I was very young. I was, I was 19, starting, like, working with youth around, like, sexual health and education and around, like, social and emotional intelligence. And like looking back, I'm like, all of this stuff was reproductive justice before I called it that, right? Because it was like making sure that they had access to their feelings, making sure they had access to their bodies, making sure they even had access to nutrition, right? And so, like, looking back, it felt so much like a full circle moment, for me to be like, Oh, I've been on this journey, but this anchor point in reproductive justice just allowed me to, like, expand without having to be like, if no one's giving birth, then I have to leave, if that makes sense, versus like, Oh no. I can actually be here for these other pieces too, right? And I think the other thing that like changed for me, too, like, I always loved my clients and I cared for the humans, but with reproductive justice, I became like very engaged in advocacy, in organizing, in community work, and in lobbying, like legislatures and policymakers, because I realize, like, having all these wonderful tools for clients to be like, oh yeah, that really supported me. Like, that's great, cool, wonderful, right? But if the environment they're going into makes them constantly have to be traumatized or constantly have these types of experiences, then I'm just, I'm just getting people out. I'm almost I'm like the Underground Railroad, right? I'm like the people going up the Underground Railroad, getting them from point to point B. But I need to, like, end this, and so I'll do my part that I'm trying to get them to point A to point B. But I also have to do my part in trying to change some things. And some of it, like, I don't know. I'm just like, I like to be like, I'm a realist, right? Like, I'm gonna, I can say, like, I'm a dreamer as well. But I'm a realist, because I think some of this stuff won't change in my lifetime, but it could change in the lifetime of my future kin, for whatever it may be, right? Like, it may not be, like, direct through me. But, you know, I think about it in that way, like my nieces, my nephews, like my cousins, all of that. So when I think about reproductive justice in the lens of the work, it's like I do the work before, and I do the work after, right? Like birth classes, I teach childbirth education, but I also teach lactation education. I also teach, like, abortion, training, right? Like, I take, I do full spectrum doula trainings, right? Because I'm like, We have to honor all parts of this, and we can do that, and we can just, like, also understand it. And it also, honestly, it allowed me to to move more in like I went, I want to say deeper, into understanding ancestral wellness and like our ancestors, and like how spirituality played a part. And I think the reason why is because there was so much information that was already there that people and have been removed from right, but they still had like these beautiful, embodied practices, or like, these ways of being like. I don't know what to do, like, we just, I just know we supposed to do it, or I know grandma used to do it this way. I don't know why, but this is what she did, right? So, like, I really, really fell into that aspect. And then lastly, I'll say, and I think, you know, I can get all mushy gushy. I'm a scientist as well, you know, so my scientific brain, me starting to study things like, more advanced, like, hormones, clinical herbalism, like, all these things, it just shifted, because I was like, oh, I can do all this. I don't have to give like, I don't have to give one to get the other right, like, I can, like, get all these things, and I can be who I authentically am. And I think, sometimes, you know, we see a lot of people that are into the womb, womb work and things like that. And because I'm like, if people went to come to me, I'm going to tell you about reproductive justice, and I'm also going to talk to you about, like, connecting yourself and honoring that. But I'm also going to tell you, like, what's the science behind this, like, yes, I can come from an anatomical perspective, it can come from a hormonal perspective. It can come from a scientific perspective, because I want to honor whatever it is that you need to get there. Right? Some people get there with the spirit, some people get there with science, and a lot of people could meet in the middle,

 right? Like, that's what I love about Chinese medicine. So some, like, I'm not an acupuncturist practitioner, but I really love Chinese medicine theory. I even give it to people that are, like, just interested and teaching them and saying them, because I think it's such a wonderful balance of like, oh, like, we have like, this Chinese medicine theory, but science says the same thing, just different way. Same thing, right? Or, like, you're like, the the ancestors say this about this herb, and also, science says this about this herb. Same thing. So I love that intersection. I love that middle ground. And I just wanted to say like, reproductive justice let me, let me give all that to people. And when I'm in the training space and my coaching space for my clients, I always try to, like, meet them where they're at and honor what they need.

Britta: So, so I hear like, there's, there's a lot of stuff that you what you've described as is there's a lot of things that you can and want to do, and reproductive justice gives you a container, a lens and and a framework to do it all.

Sabia: Yeah, it's like the the perfect holder, if that makes sense. And I think you know, the the actual like framing of reproductive justice was created by black women. And so I also always want to, like, honor that and want people to remember, like, while I'm like, Oh yes, I was using reproductive justice as this framework, and it felt amazing. But it's like the people that actually fought and advocated for other people that did not look like them as well. Because that's the other thing, I think people miss so much with reproductive justice, is that, like, it is born and created by black women, black women with different identities and experiences too, but they created reproductive justice thinking about black and brown people all across Turtle Island, right? This is before we called Native American folks indigenous like it was just other like we there were also ways that we framed people, right? And so they were honoring people and thinking of people even before then we had any of this type of language, because they had already seen the effects of Dobbs. They already saw the effects of roe, right? This already saw the effects. They saw the effects of forced sterilization, of people having forced abortions, of people having forced adoptions and having they had, like, all those pieces, they already saw. And so when it was created, it was like with this beautiful intention of, I never want any human being, a person that has the ability to give birth and then potentially become a parent, to feel like me, right? I don't want it. I don't want them to feel like me. Because I think about my grandmother, right? She's She wasn't here anymore, but I think of all the stories, all the things she went through with even Medicaid, being a Medicaid patient, all these things she went through with social services and welfare, all these things that she did for all seven of her children. And I'm like, if only when she had got pregnant at 13. And someone was like, let's think about your quality of life. I know people are like, well, you wouldn't be here. I might not be here. I know my mother is like, I might not be here, but she would have had a better life. I know that she might not have came to California. I know that my mother could, she would have had a better time maybe being a child and not a mother at 13, right? And there was, she was a wonderful mother, but there was so much that was ruptured in her life because she lived in the south, black, 13, pregnant, in the 1940s you have no resources, you've probably, you were maybe, like, six grade education if you even did that, like, and so, like, that kind of stuff. So I honor reproductive justice, because those folks, like our ancestors, were really like, we don't want anyone else to go through this, right? And it was like a beautiful nod of like when we set ourselves free, we set everyone free and as long as one person isn't free, none of us are free. And if that's it for me, then I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm in. Like, I'm totally in forever and ever. Amen.

Britta: So, so I'd love for you to connect this to the thing that I know you you talk a lot about around inclusive care. Because I think so so often, like when we're talking about inclusive care, we're probably talking about differences. We're talking about, you know, how somebody might identify, you know, either with their race or their class or their gender identity or their sexual orientation. And and there's ways in which we as professionals and birth workers and folks need to do a better job. Like that's clear. Like we can always, if we're in our growth edge, we're always going to be trying to improve. But I also hear you saying something that is there's a universality with within this concept of reproductive justice, like wanting everybody to be cared for well and have what they need that that actually that goes across all of those identities. So it's bigger than those specific, you know, more specific ways that we can unpack differences. So can you talk a little bit about how that all kind of fits together for you?

Sabia: Yeah, I think even the language that we use, when we say inclusive, I notice, like, there are times where I'll say that, and there's other times, I'll say, like, truly liberatory, like, or I'll say, truly like, equitable. And I think the reason why I say that is because I, for some reason, I I'm the words do, they mean something to me, and I can't imagine them not meaning something to everyone else. But like, when I say inclusive, inclusive just means like, to me, that we're including someone versus like liberatory to say, like, it's not just you're being included, that this could be the thing that sets you free. And I think like when I give trainings and like classes and all those things, I think about like, if we truly wanted to be like inclusive, right? If we're going to call it that, we have to come from, like, just a place of dignity, right? Like, people just should be afforded their dignity in all ways. Like, it should be like this non negotiable. And so one of the reasons why I love reproductive justice is because I'm like, I don't care what you believe, or how you grew up, or how you perceive the world. Like, I hear you. I see you. I may disagree with you, all right, but I hear you right, and I still am going to hold that you're afforded your dignity, like, whether or not you reciprocate that same understanding for me, right? I can think a person doesn't deserve the right to have abortion access, but because that person feels that way, it doesn't mean that I shouldn't try to give people abortion access. Like, they just, they just, they're wrong. Like, I'm gonna say this bold. They're just wrong. Like, on a multitude of ways, they're just wrong. But like, that's also fine. And, like, that's okay. For other people may think other things are wrong, but we have to realize that when we really focus on these things, these things are not hurting me if people are included, right, like me adding more people or more voices to this conversation, to this space, is not hurting me. It doesn't hurt me if someone is gender queer, it doesn't hurt me if someone is non binary, right? It doesn't hurt me if someone is trans, like, it just doesn't. And so those things I have to honor. Now there are some things that do hurt me, right? And I always want people to understand that. Like, if you are an incestuous person and you are proudly incestuous, that hurts me. Like, I think you're hurting people. I think you're going to hurt children, right? So, like, there's other things that hurt me. People that are racist hurt me, because I believe that they also they're going to, they may act on those things. They may not always act on them. They may just hate people just in their minds. But regardless, I know that they're going to be put in situations where they're they're doing things that are impacting other people. So, like, I know how I was raised, right in my household. And I sometimes tell people like, you know, in my household, it was very much, I guess, radical honesty, because, like, if you asked a question, you got, you got an answer. It's not right, right or wrong, or I didn't care what other people think, or if you ask a question, did you want to know an answer? And I think because of that, I've always, I've been able to understand that, like, just honoring who someone is is not a burden. And when we think about inclusion, it's not a burden. And I think like I'm I do think it matters when we are working with marginalized communities, and I think we have to understand marginalization, because marginalization really just means like, who's at the margins, right? Who's being pushed out? And let's also think about the intentionality of that, right? Some people are being pushed out because they're weird, and they're kind of different. They're a little kooky. Okay? Some people are being pushed out, being marginalized because folks don't want them in a certain resource groups, right? Like, you're intentionally doing it to keep people separated, even though people have told you, like, that's messed up and we don't want this like, so, like, I think about those who have been most marginalized, and that's why I say like me, as a black person, all up in reproductive justice, I'm like, if it works for me, it'll work for you. Like, promise, it'll work for you, right? Because I think about the layers and the lenses. I'm a black person. I'm a queer person. I was a woman at some point. I am a, you know, non binary trans person. I'm all those things, right? And so when I think about that. I'm like, again, if it works for me, it will work for you, because I'm not trying to say, like, oh, let me make sure this works for black, trans, queer men only, like, I'm not trying to do that. I'm trying to be, it doesn't matter who you are. These principles should work, because I think dignity should be a non negotiable. And I think that's what I think that's what makes it so all encompassing, is that we can honor all of these differences. We could honor all of these identities, all of these bodies, right? And not think about it as if it's a burden, because it just simply isn't. I think it just takes unlearning some things and honoring some folks. I think my whole thing is like, if we only think about people that are cis normative and white and middle class, that's not going to work because that demographic, no shade, is like 10% of this country, right? What about the other 90% And I mean, that's still assuming that every cis normative person, white middle class is normal, quote, unquote, in the way that we're talking about, because you may be disabled and CIS normative, white and middle class. So now there's a whole other layer, and there's ableism. And then I think about, like, all of these, what we call intersecting identities, right? And I call them identities. They're also the way that people move the world. And I think we just have to realize, like, at some point, like, it's not even that hard. It is just unlearning. So yeah, that's I've been going for a while, but I think that

 that's it for me, like, it's just realizing that it's a non negotiable, the dignity is, and once you realize that I think the burden of being inclusive, quote unquote, won't feel the same way.

Britta: Yeah, there is. There is something about like seeing a person as a whole person, like, I just want to like flag that, like honoring someone's dignity is, is really acknowledging this is a human that deserves care, right? Like, I don't need to agree on any other level, but we can agree at the level of this is a human. And if we're making decisions about policy and such, like, we have to think about more than just one monolithic group. Like, the reality is, is it's complex, right? We're all showing up complex, and we're all being offered the world from different lenses, right? I, as a white, cisgender woman, I'm given certain lenses and freedoms and paths and blockades. You as a black, queer, trans human, are offered a different set of lenses and different opportunities and different freedoms and different blockades, right? So like to to acknowledge that this is, like, there's nuances here. And then also to say, and underneath all of that, there's this shared thing, like, this, this is about all of us being human. And I, and I, and I want to, I want everybody to have freedom, because I want freedom. So there's a thing where, like, of course, I want this for you. I want this for all of us. And it does include everybody, like, totally, and even the ones who disagree with, like, whether or not it should include everyone. It's like, and it includes you too, right?

Navigating Systemic Barriers in Reproductive Justice Work

Sabia: Yeah. And I and I think what I'll say too, is like, there's also honoring, like, there's a piece that I think sometimes it doesn't get talked about. And I think I hope it comes through, because I wrote a chapter called rupture, and I was really, like, kind of on the fence of writing it because, like, one of the things I said was like, the system is not broken. It's actually working the way it was intended, and I'm scared of people hearing that and being like, well, then I can't do anything. And I was like, but that is still the truth, right? We have to understand, like certain systems we have that are harming us. They're working the way it was intended, so the system isn't broken, even though we say it's broken, it's not broken. And because of that, we have to realize, like, this is so much bigger than any one individual can fix it, right? We have to realize that, like, if I can do some stuff, even just locally, that's fine. That's great. And also I want you to understand it's going to be a hard road, even when I do it locally. Because, like people are, they may not like change, right? They may not want things to shift. They're, you know, part of a political party that they feel like is an alignment with, and this other stuff over here. But I think, like, once we understand, like, okay, this stuff is happening, right? And I am not personally victimizing you if I hold you accountable. And I think this is my one of my favorite things, like I just went through, like two hours with our local district attorney because they arrested my partner, like, right in front of me, and I like, I have cameras. This is on camera, right, like and we're dealing with all this crap that we're dealing with. And I was like, Listen, I'm gonna give you all grace, right? Like, I'm gonna realize like the system is working the way it's intended. You guys are probably stressed out. You probably like, it's probably all these things, but you're all gonna be held accountable. Like, I need you to know that, like, very firmly, right? Like, at the end

Sabia: of this, I may like you. I may think you're fine. I may think you're a cool person. You're all gonna be held accountable, because what you've done is harmed the person that I love, right? And I think, like, when we think about these things, we have to understand that, like, as much as we want people to be dignified, there's consequences to our actions, right? And I think like, sometimes we think, oh, well, this person needs grace. And I always say, like, the white men are the most mediocre group of people that I ever, like, encountered, right? And they get so much grace in so many ways, and they're afforded their dignity always, right? And so when I when you like, even think about some of the dumbest people on the planet, like, Elon Musk, Donald Trump, like, whoever you want to name, right? Like you're like, they don't deserve, like, you know, they don't deserve certain things, but we also honor that they're. Humans, and they also deserve a place at the table, because we're not going to play the game that they're playing right, we're going to do something different. Like, we're not just going to eradicate people because we don't like them, right? Like, we're not going to do that. That's like their playbook, right? At the same time, we're going to hold them accountable for the fact that they're garbage humans right now, right? Like, like, I don't want to dress that up pretty. I don't want to like, say, like, oh, we just need to understand their childhood trauma. No, no, no, I'm going to just honor that right now. They are garbage to me in every essence of the way. I also don't want them to be dead or harmed or hurt. And I hope they wake up one day and realize they have harmed lots of people, right? But I'm still gonna hold accountability. I'm still gonna show up with my little, you know, activist side and be like, let's honor people and let's have justice. Because that is the the only way that I think that we can actually like, be moving forward in an authentic way that is with dignity. Because when I think about the women's march, like, some of them, I'm just calling them out some of them, like, birthing rights marches and stuff like that, the amount of times there's been, like, anti trans or trans excluding pieces at those marches, or just like the the way that maybe racism comes up there. I'm just like, y'all are literally fighting for the same thing, and yet you're willing to throw people under the bus, because you just want your your peace, right? And that's not okay, because if we're trying to liberate each other, you have to liberate everybody. And if you can't do that, maybe you just need to be honest, like, I just don't like this group of people, and that's cool. We just need to have accountability and understanding that, like, we're calling it what it is, like, you know, if I, if I'm Islamophobic, I'm going to just say like, I got some stuff to work out. It's not okay, but this is my truth. And I think right now, some other people are Islamophobic, but like, love that they don't know about this community, right? They have all of this, like, bias and prejudice towards this community, and they have no idea why, right? And I always want them to, like, do some work to understand, like, why do I have this, and how can I, like, unpack this and unfold this, because I don't want this to keep impacting people, and maybe I could be part of this liberate, liberating journey, right? Because I think I'm not gonna lie. I think most people, it's not that they don't care, it's that they've been on autopilot and they didn't realize all the harm that they're actually doing. And sometimes it's very obvious. We're like, dude, if you don't get out of here, then there's some times, I'm like, Okay, I know why they thought that that was the thing, right? Because they see maybe even parents or community members do it, and this is just what we do, and no one's even questioned us, right? And so I think, like, when we think about reproductive justice, when we think about these things, like, we have to have people be responsible for the things that they do. But like, I can honor that. That was hard for you to hear, right? That was really hard, because I had to do that myself. You know, I was there was a lot of I had, I had stuff to unfold too. And I'm not going to act like it was a walk in the park. And at the same time, it's kind of non negotiable, because my existence on this planet as a human being with the freedoms and liberties that I am afforded with all the intersecting identities I have, is a direct threat to other people's existence, right? And then I want to be like, well, how is someone being trans a threat to your existence? I need you to unpack that, like I need you to. Because if I'm just existing on this planet and people are like, well, I hate them because they're black. Okay, what? Why are you threatened by us just being? You literally, I know, we call America a melting pot. I'm not like the biggest fan of that. But like, if you want to call it a melting pot, what are you talking about? And like, if you're in a melting pot, you got to stir it up, right? So I just want people to realize, like, yeah, I have some hard conversations. I have some hard experiences, but I'm here for the long game. And I think a lot of people just aren't. And I think that's the that's the sad thing that makes me like, yeah, it's lonely out here. Organizing and advocating sometimes when you wish more people just kind of understood, like, Oh no, we can do this like for the long game, you know?

Britta: And that's, and I think to your point about, like, when you realize the system isn't broken and it's working exactly like it was designed to like, that, to me actually gives me hope. And I think it could go either way. It's like, oh, well, then, what's the point? Or it could be like, Oh, well, then, okay, we know what we're dealing with, right? We know what we're dealing with now. We're not like, oh, well, if I can just fix this little part, it'll be fine. If you realize the foundation is the problem, then it's like, okay, either we got to build a new thing, or we got to rebuild the whole, you know, the whole thing. And if we know that's what we're dealing with, that's actually. An awareness that we didn't have when we thought, oh, well, this little piece, we can fix over here, right? Like we know, we know. And that is also when I think about the long game, it's like, okay, like this, this is going to take take, this is going to take a minute, and it's going to take all of us, right? Like it can't just be, you know, the one woke doula in this community over here. It has to be like, actually more of us caring about this and understanding it and being willing to do the long game work. Because some of us aren't going to live forever, and somebody else has to pick this up to keep carrying the torch.

Personal Boundaries and Capacity in Justice Work

Sabia: Yeah, and I think, I think we have to, like, I want people to realize that we can do this work from a place of passion and care, but we have to know our capacity and our boundaries, because, like, I don't want you to burn out. I want you to care about reproductive justice and just social justice in general. And I also realize, like, if you are new to having children, like, you may not have the ability to do all the things right. And I think we have to give ourselves and each other grace and like, we have to honor that, like, the best way for maybe you is, like, when you do go to voting places and stuff like that, there are things, there are people who, like, you know, put these initiatives in place. And all you have to do is show up, and that's great. Like, if you just show up, that's cool. Maybe that's what you have capacity for right now. Maybe you can repost some things on Instagram. Maybe that's the capacity you have. And a lot of people like to say, like, oh, you're a Keyboard Warrior. You don't do this. And I was like, you're reaching 1000s of people right now by reposting that, maybe that's something right, and I get it like, we also need people on the ground. We need people in person. We need people doing things, but we also need people with money and the resources to give to these causes, right? They may not be able to do on the ground work because they're doing other things and running companies, and I'm not mad at that. If you have the money that can fund and sustain community based, grassroots organizations that I can't get from the federal or the state or their county, even though we all pay taxes, right? Like, if I can't get it from there, you being able to give that money like that's great. I need you in that, in that role right now, right? Like, I need that person that is like, Listen, I'm not going to ask you guys any questions because you all know how to do this work. Here's 100,000 like, go, like, do what you need to do. I think the thing that a lot of people get caught up in, and I can understand this. There's some privilege in this too, is that they're like, oh, I need to do it all right now, all the time. And for some of us, that is the reality. Like, I am black, so it's going to be in my face. Like, I can't say, like, oh, I need to take a break, because a few months go by, and some stuff is going to happen, and I'm going to need to be on on defense. Like, that's just, that's just the reality, right? Like, I'm not just me being black, but anyone that maybe has these intersecting identities that are historically and presently marginalized. Like, that's just, you're not going to be afforded the same level of rest. And so if I can see you with the same vision and care about the same things that I do, but you got to take a break and bow out. Please do that, because I need you to come back fresh, like I don't need you burnt out. Because you burnt out. You're no good right to me. And also I don't want that for you. Like, I want you to keep your relationships. I want you to have your friends. I want you to love that I want you like, because you deserve that. And I don't want you to think that that is a burden, right? I think sometimes we're like, well, there are people that can't leave. It's privilege. And I'm like, Yeah, it is privilege that you can bow out and rest. And also, I want you to know, like I want that for you, like I want you to have those things, so that when you come back, you can do some dope stuff, and you can be a part of some cool things, and like, even people that are maybe not as aware or as, you know, woke as we would like them to be. Like, maybe they can do something, and they just need to see something. And maybe because you're rested and you're a cool person, you can, like, tell them, and, like, maybe you could inspire them to do this one little thing that impacts, like, the five folks in their community that are differently abled, like, the one little piece and I, like, we just I think we're so focused, and we do have to have this, like, sense of urgency, because there are people that are losing their lives and and their, you know, their livelihoods and, like, different things like that. So I understand sense of urgency is important, and and I think it's just more like the ants in the grasshopper, like there's room for lots of different people in this space of liberating people. And so let's just try to make sure that we know where we're at. We know what we could do right now, and then that's what we do. And then we come back later, we can do something else.

Britta: It's great. I mean, I think that's great, because there is this trap of like I and I love the, you know, the analogy of the the grasshopper and the ants. And. And I like I think that's true, because you kind of don't know who's going to inspire whom, and and you're you may be reaching people in ways that you don't even see or realize, and that might be the thing that kind of tips them to be curious about this other thing. And so, like there is a thing where I think that, yeah, some people are doing this 24/7, because they don't have a choice, and some of us are privileged enough to be like, Okay, I'm gonna step away, right? And and the and piece there is that, like, either or, like we need both of those things to be respected, right? We need the people who are always doing this work to be respected. And we also need to give grace to other folks who are like, Okay, I'm tapping out right now, and I will be back, right, like, and we need both of those to be okay, but without diminishing. I think that's sometimes, I think what gets complicated is, like, sometimes when the people who can tap out are telling the people who can't, you should just take a break, and you're like, No, you don't understand I like, I can't. I really can't. So so I, I appreciate everything that you just said, because I think it's, it's important to to be able to name that, like, we all do have different capacities and different amounts of privilege, and we each need to recognize where we're at in that in that mix, and we need to own our part with of that, right? Like, we need to own our part of what we have privilege around and what we don't have privilege around, right? And do whatever we can for ourselves and for the collective. So, yeah, I'm with you on this

Kink as a Liberatory Practice for Parents

Britta: so I'm gonna, I'm gonna shift us a little bit here. And this is one of my, I'm so curious. So you gave that talk at that conference last year around kink, a liberatory practice for parents. And I remember you and I sitting we were having a little chat, and you kind of giving me the like an elevator version of it. And then I got to go to your talk, and I was, my brain was like, having all of the poppiness, and I'm like, light bulbs are going off because the things you were talking about were things that we talk a lot about on this podcast about boundaries and consent and agency and care, right? And how do I create a life that that honors the things that I need as a person and also supports me in being in relationship, whether it's with my co parent or my child or my other relationships, like, how do I do all of that? So can you let me and first, I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask this question kind of both at the same time. So can you explain what kink is? And I know there's people, listeners, who are probably like, I don't know, right? And then also like, why the hell are you talking about kink in a conversation about parenting. So, so let's double down on those two, like, what is it? And why are we bringing it up in parenting?

Sabia: That's good. I like, I love that. So when we think about kink in the very, like, simplified version, simplified, shortened version, is like, think of it as like, the the taboo or non traditional pleasure practices. That's That's my, that's the easiest way I can say that people are gonna be like, Nope, that's not it. And I'm like, that's fine. This is what I'm saying. And I think, like, when we're talking about kink or kinky practices, some of it can look like role play. Some of it can look like using like different sensations on the body, like hot wax or whatever, or someone likes their feet and like, someone does this. There's so many different things, and every person has, like, a different perspective and way. I will say, as the person who's certified in in sexuality, education, and has been a sex educator for over 20 years, I will say, this is what I what I feel about kink. When I think about kinky practices and kinky people, I think about people who have built or co created a relationship with so much intention, to the point where there is no assumptions made, meaning that I know if you're coming home, if the doors open, and I see you and you come in and you're like, I want to just lay on the floor, and I'm just going to be here. You want to be on the floor. That's what you need in that moment. It's so intentional that I'm not going to say, like, well, let's talk about or be like, well, first, let's go let me give you this, and then we'll like, no, you need to be on the floor. Like, cool. I'll give you 20 minutes to be on the floor. Let's then come over here and see what you need. Right? There's so much intention that's built and like, as I like to say, the bedrock of kink, to me is consent, consent, consent. Consent. Have I said it too much? No, consent and in the kink community, there's even levels of that. And people talk about and there's this long, long conversations about consent. And I think the reason why I wanted to bring kink and kinky practices to the parent world is because what I saw people doing to become kinky folks or to become people in that community is that there was so much intentionality that they had to learn a lot about themselves before they could ask other people to even engage with them, right? And I thought, well, that's, that's what we need to be doing, in a sense, before we become parents, or even, you know, before people become co parents, or, like, just becoming co parents, like you should, you really should be honoring yourself. You should not be making so many assumptions. You should be. And I think like when I think about that is, like most people, when they're going to have like a kinky play session or, you know, they're going to do BDSM play or whatever it may be, they have this thing called negotiations, and negotiations is, like, talking about what you will do, what you won't do, like your safe words, what, you know, aftercare looks like. Aftercare is like, after you've done all the things right, what do you need to come back to baseline, right? And in that negotiation, you can do negotiations before an event, like an event, meaning, like we're going to a play party, we want to do this, and then you can also do negotiations afterwards. So maybe we went to the play party and we did the thing and that felt cool. And then, you know, a few days after we're like, oh, you know, that we would have changed, or that was really great. I love the way that and that's really what negotiations is about. And the more I talk to people as I'm doing coaching for them, particularly parents, and they're like, I don't know why we're having these challenges, and we got pregnant because we love each other and it felt right. But now we're not having sex anymore. We're not doing this anymore. And I'm like, Okay, well, and then we slowly unfold, and I'm like, Well, did you guys ever talk about what parenthood looked like before you did it, right? Like, what does it look like? And now this is not to say that we could give a full list of like, here's how I'm going to feel day one. Here's what parenthood is going to be like to me. This is what kids look and sound and smell like. I can't do that, right? But you can have an idea in your head what partnership or co parenting looks like to you, right? Or, like, what you wish it looked like, or what your Norths star is, right? Like, where do you want to be like, three to five years? Where do you want to be at 10 years? Like, what are we trying to get to? What is the goal? Like, what is the what's the intention here? And I think, like, so many people have children either because a they want to, b they, you know, they did something and they're like, Okay, well, this is happening. Or sometimes it's like, you know, someone does something to their body, and this is just what's happening. Or other circumstances. But like, there's so many circumstances and situations, and I just think, like, if we had been more attentive and more intentional about it, the road wouldn't be so rocky. The road would be smoother. And I think that's what kink and kinky practices do. Is they give us tools, like actual literal tools, about, like, how we consent, right? Because people think consent looks like, oh, did you want this? Cool? Consent is like a constant continual evolution. Consent is something that is also contextual, meaning that I may have had that sexual experience with you two nights ago, and it was so great and we had such an amazing time, but I don't want that right now, right? Because of XYZ, I may not even know what XYZ is, but I'm just not in the space right now. And consent is saying and you honoring that I'm not there, right? I may have also said, like, I was so excited to co parent with you. I was so excited for this journey, and now we've had our baby, and I'm not excited anymore, right? And we need to honor that, right? Like, we need to honor that, like, maybe that was true, and it was your truth, and now it's not your truth anymore. And I think this is where, where kink and kinky practices plays a part, is because I've seen so many parents say this, Oh, I used to like this thing before I became a parent, and now I don't like it. Okay, well, did you tell that person, right? And I think that's where it's like the communication piece, or someone be like, oh, I didn't like being touched on my right nipple during sex before, but now it feels really great, and maybe I need to tell this person so they don't ignore it, you know, and I think the reason why I pulled kink in and I was like, you know, if you just take some of these things that kink and kinky practices teach us, and you just, like, apply them to your parenting journey, like, oh my god, game changer. And I'm not saying it's a I'm not saying there's a magic pill, because, like, as much as, like, kinky people and people like to do these practices, they still have problems. They still got to negotiate. They still got to do the things. But it does make sure that you're honoring yourself and you're honoring other people, you're honoring consent, you're honoring all those things, right? And I'm like, why would we not just try to add this into parenting and like, the journey to parenthood and our partnerships and co parenting relationship, like, why? And I think too, I mean, I say this a lot, I don't have kids, right? Like, I never wanted children, but I have so many nieces and nephews and great nieces and great nephews, and they're just coming by the dozens right now, like, just so many of them. And I like, I love having those children in my life, and I love that they have their parents, because I'm like, I get to give them so much. And I'm like, here y'all go, right? And I think, like, I like to say, like, you know, even though I'm doing work as like, a postpartum doula, even though I didn't, didn't have those, I never, I never carried a child. I never birth the child, that type of thing. But I really am passionate about people being well, in parenting so that their children are well, because those kids did not ask to be here, like, period. We were the ones that was like, No, we want you here. And now they're here. We got to take care of them, and in order to take care of them, we got to take care of ourselves. And I think that's what it's like, if we do all the. Things up front before kids, what a dynamic, you know, like different road we will have, you know, maybe by the time our kids turn one instead of like, two weeks, we'll be able to meet them and see who they really are, right? Or see who's starting to emerge. And because we've done so much of that work up front, right to kind of, like, get stuff and unpack this and get the tools. And so to me, I'm like, yeah, let's just add kink and think the practices, and we should call a day,

Britta: I mean, but you make a really good point here, which I think isn't obvious to a lot of people. Because a part of me is like, because you're talking about, you're talking about some things that, like we I talk about, like, ongoing consent is something we talk about a lot here. We talk about conversations. We talk about like, you know, constantly being able to, I mean, I don't even think we use that phrase constantly we're but, but being able to name what's true in the moment that doesn't have to be true a month from now, or a year from now, or three days from now, right? And so like, there's a lot of things that I think parallel, like the stuff that we talk about in healthy, generative, liberatory parenting, right? And then you saying actually all those things come from kink, and it's like, right? So actually I, and a lot of other people are doing this work, and we're just, we're pulling from this tradition. And I think it's important to name that, and I think, honestly, like, if I were thinking about kink, and I'm sure there's other listeners who maybe think about kink, if you think about it at all, you're like, oh, it's a thing for a certain kind of sex or sexual practice, right? Like, it seems limited, and to have you explain it, like actually what this is about is ongoing consent and intentionality and the continual conversation, like, and so if you want that for for your parenting, like, you actually can take these things that aren't strictly sexual, they're just about attentiveness and intentionality, and they can apply in so many different ways. Like, if we're talking about embodiment work, somatic work. We're talking about BDSM and kink practices. We're talking about parenting. Like, there's ways in which the things that we are creating to help people show up well in one arena are applicable in other arenas like that, to me. That like that, to me, is a really great parallel.

The Importance of Preparation and Self-Knowledge Before Parenting

Sabia: Yeah, it's also like, I want people to think about it too. Because, like, you know, we have so many people that are like, well, you shouldn't be doing any of that type of stuff when you're pregnant. Or, like, you shouldn't be doing this type of stuff, like, after you have your baby. And it's like, y'all need to mind your business, right? And I think the reason why I say that so blankly and frankly, is like, if I did all of these things before I had children, one I'm not trying to figure this out postpartum, but to also, I'm like, I don't have, like, when you have children, there's a certain level of assumed knowledge, right? Like you have in laws, or you have your own family that's assuming that you're going to do things like, oh, well, we did it this way, or like, you got to try this. Or like, maybe you could do it this way. Or, like, all those things right? That doesn't happen as much in the kink community. There may be people that's like, Oh, if you're a sub, you got to do it this way. Well, who says that, right? Like, there's so much of that, that is being, like, negotiated and being worked out and being talked about. And I think when you have children, a lot of people don't question, they just do it because they're like, Oh, well, my parents and maybe didn't do it right, but I want to be like them in some ways. So I'm going to also try to, like, mirror it. Or I'm going to try to do it better, or that type of thing. Or, like, let me see what my friend did. And, you know, they had their baby before me. I'm going to see, like, what they were using, these types of things, right? That's fine. All of that is fine. And also, I think like, What the hell do you want? Right? What do you want? Like, what is, like, beyond just having a child? Right? Like, what do you want? What does parenting look like to you? And, like, this is where I say, what does parenting your child look like to you? Not anybody else? This is your child, this is your family, this is your partnership. Like, who are you, like, in this experience? And I think that's where kink and kinky practices play such a huge part, is, like people who do engage in this, and also people who study sex and sexuality and all these type of things. Like, they know a lot about themselves before they even engage, right? They know a lot about themselves. Like, I think about like, I remember someone who, you know, they're doing kinky practices and and they were talking about different things, but like, they were so aware of themselves that they was like, Oh, I know if I make it past 11pm, I'm going to be irritable. They know this about themselves, and some people are like, well, you learned that because you have to just live. And I was like, or you could learn that because you have more awareness of yourself, and you've been constantly, like, checking in with yourself, and you're honoring yourself, right? I think sometimes people live. If you just live, then you're going to have certain things that's going to be forced to be in your face. But I think with kink and kinky. Practices. And just because people are learning so much about themselves, and they want to, like, be able to have good communication, like, I want this to be wonderful. And every single person that's out here trying to, like, do BDSM practices, they're like, I want to be good at whatever role I'm playing, like, I want to be so good at that, right? So it's like, I have to learn about myself, and I have to, like, go through those things. So even, like, when you think about a parent and or, like co parents, or, you know, a person who's trying to, like, parent on their own, I'm like, do you know yourself? Like, before you have this baby, do you know yourself? I think some people can pull from their childhood and have a full list of like, I will never do or this is what I know I'll do, and I want to honor that. But are you prepared to sit in a space alone or with someone and say, like, okay, after I've done all this prenatally, cool stuff, and I'm just, like, Waiting the moment to come, what do I really want my life to look like, right? And I think that's not a question that people ask themselves enough. And honestly, I don't think people do that before they have kids, because we're not encouraged to really, most people don't engage in that, or, like, think about those things. It's like, oh, well, I got pregnant. What's the next thing? Oh, let me get the crib. Let me get like, let me do all these things. Let me like, and I'm like, y'all are doing all that, and that's fine, but like, did you think about, like, who you are right now, and who you're going to be three months from now? And I don't mean like, oh, like a mom or whatever. I mean, like, who are you? Like, what do you who are you right now? What do you find pleasure in? What lights you up. Like, what do you care about? Like, what are you just like? Like, I think we lose ourselves so much in certain identities because, like, we all have different identities, and people love to grab on to, like, the identity of a mother or being a parent. And I was like, and that, I get it, because it takes up so much of our lives. But also, I don't want you to lose who you are, because I don't want your children to ever question you, and you not be able to say something that's like, outside of just being a parent, right? And I want you to be able to, like, I want you to be able to teach your children. Like, I love this music, or I love this art, or I love this feeling. I love going to this park because, like, I feel so joyful and happy when I'm here, whatever it is right and like, I want you to be able to do that and say that. And if you lose that in this transition and liminal space of becoming and birthing and having these these humans like, then it's going to be harder, I think, for you to access that later. It just is.

Britta: I love it. And I and I think there's a, there's a huge myth about parenting, which is, you will lose yourself, and you need to be okay with that, right? Yes, there's a lot of folks who are like, well, well, you have a kid, you're not gonna matter. Like, it's it's all about your kid, right? And the truth is, is, like, if we lose ourselves in parenting, we're not showing up at our best as parents, and we're not teaching our kids and modeling for our kids that we're allowed to have agency and identities and interests. So there is a way in which, like, we have to push back against that myth. Because, yes, parenthood changes you like it just it just does, but you can be changed and still have parts of who you were before, even if they take on a different flavor or expression, you know, like they can, still be there. You haven't like, ceased to exist as a person because you're a parent, you are now, you've added a layer, right? But that other layer needs to still exist. And I think that's like a really important thing that a lot of the work I'm doing is about really trying to help people recognize like this is a developmental transition. You're not the same person you were like you're just not and you aren't supposed to be. But that doesn't mean you're no longer a person that doesn't mean you completely lose yourself. There's a way to honor both of those things.

Contact Information and Birthing Advocacy Doula Trainings

Britta: Savia, so how do people learn more from you or more about you and your work? What's the best way?

Sabia: Easiest ways? Save me away.com. If you wanted to look at all the things, and then if you want to see more of the day to day, which can be chaotic and also chill, and they can just suspress it up my brain, stay be aware on Instagram.

Britta: And then there's also the if you are interested in doula work and Perinatal work, B, A, D T, you want to just do a tiny bit about B, A, D T, because we didn't get there as much as I thought we might

Sabia: Okay. Birthing advocacy, doula trainings, is our training organization been around since 2019 we have classes when we do full spectrum reprocess work. We have classes from full spectrum doulas to childbirth education to lactation education to abortion training, to a bunch of other things. 

Sabia: we also have free workshops, free things that we also come up so even if you're like, I don't want to do a class right now, but we have a lot of free offerings that we give to the community. And I love VAT because it's literally just like an expression of where I think the world could be if we just let reproductive justice

Britta: lead the way. Let reproductive justice lead the way. I love it. So as we come to a close, I usually like to ask one final question of my guests. So are you ready for my question? Ready? I mean, I don't want to. I don't want the conversation to end yet. Xavier, because you and I just have so much fun when we talk. But okay, here's the question is, what's one thing you feel passionately about that you want new or expectant parents to see, hear, feel or know during this profound period of their lives? So whether they're new parents or. Spectant. Like, what do you want them to really know?

Clinical Herbalism for Perinatal Wellness

Sabia: No, that's so my my scientific brain is on. So I'm going to say clinical herbalism. Say that again, clinical herbalism. And I'm saying that because there's all different types of herbalists. But one of the things that I think Willie gets lost is that when people are on medications, because a lot of pregnant people are on medications, or postpartum even beforehand, and they're like, well, then I can't, I can't do anything but herbs, right? And the thing is, you could be on medications and have herbs supporting your body, and I think about that like there's so many people that I would love. Would love to work with, like, in the fertility stage of getting their body ready. Like, how many people can work with herbs to lower their cortisol levels, to get some systems moving before they get pregnant, right to so that they can really be supported, and their baby can be supported in this body that's being, you know, maintain it in a better space. And postpartum, I can't say enough, like, sometimes, really honestly, some people don't have access to meds or access to certain things, and especially if you live in rural spaces or live in, you know, different spaces. Like, I just wish that people just knew a little bit more about what's in their backyard, as well as just also knew about where people like me who are like, hey, I want to help you in whatever you have moving or whatever we have going on. And like, you don't have to become a vegan and you don't have to become sense, like, we don't have to do any of that right now. But here's a T, literally that can help with your blood pressure. Here, the this that can, over time, help with this, like, and I just, and it could be in complementary care to whatever medicine you're taking. So I don't know. I'm just really into that. And I wish more people knew about that, supporting lactation, supporting postpartum healing, like, whatever it is, it can just be supported more or less by a plant, or two or three.

Britta: So remember the plants folks and and find somebody who can support you with that.

Sabia: Like, you'll be like, my my partner who, like, we were like, our house is like on an acre. And was like, all these, all these, like, plants are growing. I mean, like, medicinal plants and everything. And she's like, Oh, I thought they were just weeds. And I'm like,

Britta: depends what your definition of a weed is. Exactly

Sabia: No. Like, here's comic eating Primrose. You know, we could do that helps with, like, scar tissue. That helps with, like, all these things as a pregnancy, like, anyway,

Britta: yeah, yeah. Well, thank you so much sabia for sharing your wisdom, for sharing your heart and for bringing us this information about what a wide range of topics actually we've covered here today, from from reproductive justice to kink and and herbalism

Sabia: my brain, we, we've, we've

Britta: gone the gamut. So thank you so much for for what you do and for joining me today. And thank you listeners for sharing this time with us. If something shared today impacted supported or moved you, please share this episode with a friend. I produce this podcast myself, and your support makes it possible to show a little love for the podcast and these conversations. Please follow rate and review. If you'd like to continue the conversation, please join us on Instagram at transformed by birth. I look forward to being with you again on the next episode of transformed by birth. Now it's time. Let's gather what we want to take away what's a nugget or something that's sticking with you from this conversation. Bring that in with an inhale, and when you're ready, blow out your candle, or just blow out your breath as I blow out mine, until next time bye. Friends.