Birth as an Altered State of Consciousness with Whapio

Introduction and Welcome

Britta Bushnell:

Hello folks, and welcome to Transformed by Birth, a podcast about the rite of passage of pregnancy, birth and new parenthood. I'm your host, Britta Bushnell, author, mythologist, childbirth educator and an all around deep diver with a side of goofball. I'm so glad you're here. Today's episode explores the transformative journey of giving birth, pretty much my favorite topic of all time, and why this podcast and my book are named what they are. So grab your comfy beverage of choice or take us along for a walk as we connect with elder, midwife, educator, mentor and visionary, the Matrona Whapio, Diane Bartlett. Before we begin, we start the way we always do, by lighting a candle. If you want to join me, please do or take a breath as I light mine. Today's candle is in honor of the transformative journey of birth giving.

There are certain voices in the birth world that feel like coming home, voices that have been speaking truth about birth as transformation long before it became part of the cultural conversation. Whapio is one of those voices for me. Listening to her share her perspective about the transformation of birth is simply yummy in my tummy. So let me tell you a little bit about Whapio. For over 40 years, Whapio Diane Bartlett has been a pioneer in the world of midwifery and wisdom, helping to redefine how we understand and approach birth. Since 1985, as an elder, midwife, educator and mentor, Whapio has devoted her life to raising the consciousness of birth and transforming how families, caregivers and communities honor this sacred process. In 2001, Whapio founded the Matrona, an educational organization dedicated to making holistic midwifery wisdom accessible to doulas, midwives and families around the world. Through her teachings, she has created a path that weaves together the practical skills of birth work and a deeper understanding of birth as an altered state of consciousness, emphasizing presence, awareness and the sacred nature of the birth experience. Today, Whapio's primary teachings are offered through the Matrona's core programs. Through these programs, students explore the art and science of birth while deepening their capacity for presence, intuition and compassionate care. Whapio speaks passionately about the role of consciousness in caregiving, believing it to be a missing element in modern maternity care. She often reminds her students that the way we care for birth shapes not only families, but the future of humanity itself. As she says, the way we give birth is a mirror of the emotional and spiritual maturity on this planet. If we prioritize consciousness in birth, we will transform not only the experience of birth, but the very fabric of how we live and relate to each other. So if you, like me, are always seeking conversations and frameworks that honor birth as a rite of passage, as a journey of consciousness and transformation, as something far more profound than a medical event, Whapio's work and this episode will resonate for you too. Welcome, Whapio. I'm so grateful and honored you're here. Thank you for joining me.

Whapio: And to you, thanks a lot for letting me be here.

Britta: Oh, it's such a joy. So you have been speaking about birth as a journey of consciousness for decades, since, like, in the 80s, something around that.

Whapio: Yeah, about the 80s.

Britta: So long before this became part of the mainstream conversation, and that's — I'm not even 100% sure I would say it's part of the mainstream conversation now, but it's getting closer, right?

Whapio: It's getting closer. Yeah, we're getting ready. We're not so dense anymore, and therefore these ideas about transformation can permeate people more readily.

Britta: Yes, I love that. So when you say consciousness is the missing element, what do you mean?

Consciousness as the Missing Element in Birth

Whapio: Well, awareness. Awareness of what's really happening here. That it's maybe happening to a woman out of physical experience, but there's also an emotional realm to birth. There's a fluidity to birth, there's more than just the physical reality. And therefore, if you can see this as in birth, you're raising the consciousness of birth, if you see that it is more than just a physiologic experience, or — as Williams Obstetrics has it — the expulsion of the contents of the uterus, right? Which is such a like bringing it down to the stages of extracting a tooth at the dentist, which is so not what we're talking about. It's so much more profound than that, so much bigger. But the expulsion of the contents of the uterus is like, yeah, I went to the dentist and got a tooth pulled. Like, that's not what we're talking about here. There's so much. I mean, I'm not saying that you can't have a transformative tooth extraction, but we're talking about something very deep here, and that is so important.

Britta: Yeah. So how do you see birth as a transformative experience? Because sometimes there is a belief that in order for a birth to be transformative, it has to look a particular way on social media?

Whapio: Well, yeah, or it has to blow up, or it has to — yeah, there's that. There's that in order for it to be transformative, it has to tick some boxes.

Every Birth Can Be Transformative: Having Your Own Birth

Britta: Right. And I don't think you subscribe to that in the same way. So what does it mean for birth to be transformative in your vantage point?

Whapio: Well, okay, I mean, I had two children. I had them at home. I had a midwife, and it was — you know, if I can Rolodex the most important day of my life, it was when I learned I was pregnant. I felt like a child of the universe. Now I'm doing what stars are doing. Okay? I'm exploding. I was so happy to be pregnant, alright? And it transformed me. And I knew that, therefore, when I became a midwife, I realized, oh, okay, this is the same thing. This is what I wanted. And then, okay, in 40 years of birth, I felt like I learned a lot about how the culture is evolving. It's just like you said, we're in the season now to begin to talk about this for real, for actuality, not just oh, it's a formative event, isn't that interesting? And people say, oh, you've been in birth for 40 years, you must have seen some changes. And I'm like, yes, I do, but it's not in the caregivers, it's in the women and the family. That's what's changing. That's what's going to be transformative. That's who's going to pull us up out of the ground. Because women have said to me, Whapio, I want my birth. I want to be transformed by birth, but I can't unless I have my birth. I don't want your birth. I don't want my sister's birth. I don't want my doula's birth. I want my birth. This, to me, is transformational in itself. This shows me that the season is coming to where this will make sense to everyone. And you know, I know that a field of flowers doesn't bloom all at once, okay, but we're having some blooming going on. We're having some blooming.

Britta: And you've been planting seeds of those flowers for a long time, and there is some blooming happening. And I love what you said, that it's a lot about having the birth that is their own — that is not about an ideal of a birth that is planted, speaking of seeds, planted in your head by somebody else's journey. Or it's like really diving in and exploring, what is this for me? So that means that a transformative birth can happen in a hospital or by a stream or in a home or a birth center, if that's the place and the type of birth that is transformative for that individual.

Whapio: Exactly. Yeah, yeah, which is not always what it is we think of when we talk about about it being transformative. Right? And, you know, a lot of people might not know what that means. Like, what does that mean? Everything's transformative, or nothing's transformative, about birth or whatever? Okay, and so I'm describing it becoming more into the consciousness, alright, as a viable understanding that birth is multi-dimensional. And the way that works is because we as people have become more multi-dimensional, multi-sexual, multi-all of it, okay, mostly — we've become less dense. Therefore we can share these deeper concepts with each other and know what we're talking about. And you and I are having a moment of weaving that thread. We are multi-dimensional now. We are not so dense. We can talk about these things, and people hear us and know what we mean.

Britta: I love that. I love how you weave together — and I know this is part of what you love to focus on — the impact of birth on culture and what's happening in the world, as well as what's happening in the world's impact on birth, that there is a weaving and a connection between them. Yeah. Can you talk more about that? The connection between how we birth and consciousness on the planet.

The Role of Partners and Fathers in Birth

Whapio: Well, I think that women and families have a lot to teach us, okay, about connection. They feel now that, and especially in the role of the father — for many years, and still, the father is sometimes considered wallpaper. In fact, we'd be fine without him, and I just cannot imagine that being a conscious statement. So things like that that are ingrained. And women saying — one of the first things women taught me, alright, because heavens, I practiced for two, three years, and then I went into practice. And one of the first things they asked me was to please yield the birth to them. Alright? And what they said was, we don't need you in the center of our birth, Whapio, we need our partners there. We need our husbands there. Will you do that for us? And I was like, I would love to do that for you, because that's how my birth unfolded. The only person I had eyes for at my birth was my husband. Okay? And when I see that in other women, I like, okay, we've got it now. This is — we must change the role of the father in society right now. Alright, I feel like fathers are inherently important, that there are three people here: a mother, father, birth baby, okay, or whatever your configuration of your family is. It can be a little different genders and different names for those, but the family is at the center of that. That's what it is. Yes, yes, alright. And fathers are really wanting to step into that role, and other fathers are a bit more tentative about it, yeah. But this is what I feel is coming to fruition. This is going to set us free to a whole other rung of the spiral, when partners start catching their babies.

Britta: I love that you're speaking about this, because it makes me think of a podcast clip that's just going viral right now on social media. And I'm not even going to name who it is, but a big podcast person speaking about how he didn't want to be in the room, and that it was disgusting and he shouldn't be there, and he kind of buys into the 1950s sitting in the waiting room, smoking a cigar vibe. And he's like, it's, I don't have any job there, I can't be helpful. And of course, the internet is blowing up on this. And it's interesting to me that you're speaking about this, because I actually think that when a big change like the role of partners and fathers in the labor room becomes known to be powerful, there are going to be voices that come in and try and hold on to the old guard.

Whapio: Always, right? There's like that — hold on, don't take this from my grasp.

Britta: And so that's kind of what's happening. And now all these people are saying, no, no, my partner was essential in my birth. Yes, absolutely. So I love all the levels — physical, emotional, spiritual, familial, lawfully even, right? Fathers hold the charge. There's so much importance there. And I think that's so — it's not even — I mean, I want to kind of bring partners and dads into this story, that they are also having a transformation. That experience of witnessing, holding, being guardian of the birth space. My former mentor, Pam England, would refer to it as guardian of the birth space. How important that is, yeah.

Whapio: And so I practiced for 20 years before I went into teaching, alright? And the births that I saw are nothing like the births today, alright, in the sense, honestly, that women are very captive in what they're allowed to do, and very dissatisfied. I've never seen such a wave of dissatisfaction about birth. And you know, it's all rooted in the fact that ultimately, it's because I wanted my own birth and I didn't get it, okay. And as I said, the women I worked with wanted me to change places. They wanted to put their partner there, and let me be on the outside, running interference, or something like that. And when I would see this — this was so beautiful to see a dad. You know, the favorite position of mothers, when I leave people alone, which I do a lot, is that women birth on one knee. They feel very solid on one knee. They don't — you know, squatting is kind of tentative, one knee. And then when you have a father who kneels before this woman with their child birthing their child, and they catch that baby, you know, I have to say, this is what family is. This is the honoring of mother, father, baby. This will pull us out. This will lead us ahead.

A Mythic Framework for the Stages of Labor

Britta: I love that. So — I'm going to pull us back for a minute to talk about birth as transformation. You have kind of renamed and re-identified stages of labor to be a little more mythical, a little more connected to transformation, rather than those clinical definitions that we have gotten so used to hearing. And I love when you talk about these. Can you share a little bit about the framework that you look at the journey of labor and birth?

Whapio: Sure. So when I was a young midwife, I couldn't imagine why labor hadn't been renamed. Because if you want to change the pattern of something, you should absolutely change the language. Language helps create reality. And I kept thinking, why is there still nobody differentiating birth as a mythic journey, as a journey of transformation? So I said, well, I will. Alright. Because these are the things that I see happening. I see a woman dancing with a veil very clearly before she commits to the mountain. Alright? I see what happens at the top of the mountain, when a woman actually reaches full dilation. I see that there's a change in the labor that we have totally ignored. Alright? I see something called a return. I see that women don't pick up their babies right away, because they are returning from the vastness — molecular changes from the vastness of time and space. They need a moment, and they also need that they're safe and that their baby is, meaning that their partner is there, okay, so that they can come in when they are ready. And different things like that. So there's no acknowledgement of some of these other stages, especially the quietude, alright.

We don't accept the fact that when a woman has done all this first stage dilating, and the cervix is the star of the show — what's happening with your cervix? The cervix, that most of us don't even have a visual understanding of when we're going through birth, let alone actually able to see it. We don't even have a visual of it, and yet here it is, everything. We're such a dilation-centric birth culture, and it's very clinical road, you know.

Britta: So what do we do instead of focusing on dilation and those clinical definitions? What are the ways of viewing it and imagining it that are different?

Whapio: Okay, I learned over the years that the more I involved myself in midwifery, and the more profound it was, that I would be given signs — I call them auras, okay — that would guide me to know what was going on without having to disturb the mother, the father, the partner at all.

Signs and Auras: Intuitive Knowing in the Birth Space

Whapio: For instance, if you want to know where a woman is at, you just see if there are any signs in the room. Because one time I went to a birth and all of a sudden I'm washing my hands — you know, I just got there and I hadn't really even addressed the mom yet, took off my shoes, washed my hands, okay? And then all of a sudden I saw these golden things start going around in the air. And I thought, is someone in this house doing drugs or something, or what's going on here? What is this stuff? And then I would realize that sometimes it happened, I saw it, and then sometimes it didn't right away when I came in. And what I realized was this: if I see those golden things, halos and whatnot, I know, without fail, that she has committed to the journey and that she is at least five centimeters.

Okay, because there it is. There's the sign. And I ask other women and birth keepers and whatnot — if you have a sign like that — and some midwives, birth keepers, doulas, will say, oh yeah, it's the smell. It's not something I see, it's the smell. And I'm like, yeah, right, I hear that. What's it like? It's like the smell of birth. And as the labor opens up further and further and further, you can smell it in the room. And then people tell me — and I get this one too — it's the air quality. It's like molasses, it's like honey, you're walking through it, and it's like slow-mo. Well, you know, you know where she is right now. She's at seven, alright? And she's changing the very air we're breathing. We don't need to invade a woman. We just need to watch what's going on. And women have said, okay, it's not the color for me, it's not the smell, it's the vibration. If the room is quiet, I actually hear a vibration. Okay, and she's opened across the threshold. She's opened a new vibration. We're getting close now. These are the gifts that you get for being a midwife and a doula and a birth keeper — you get to see a whole other pattern. And really, four centimeters is irrelevant. It's irrelevant. It's the golden spangles that is relative, okay.

And I've learned so many things like that, given these kinds of gifts. You know, I'm a night owl, but every now and then, back in those days when I was riding down the roads, if I have the inclination to go to bed at 7:30, I knew that I needed to go to bed because at three o'clock in the morning, someone would be calling me, alright. It was such a synchronicity that you have toward what is opening in the birth. Okay, right?

Birth as an Altered State: Brain Waves and Consciousness

Britta: So this is such a different type of knowing, then, than what we are used to hearing discussed around birth, that has become medicalized and structured and has kind of an idea of progress as linear and super uber rational. And yet there's something — so I can imagine listeners being like, whoa, this is so out there, but at the same time there is such an otherworldly experience in birth, whether you're the one giving birth or fortunate enough to be invited to witness it, that kind of does make it an altered state, an altered experience that is a different type of consciousness — to kind of echo back to what you said right at the beginning. There's a different type of consciousness. I've had people in my classes say, Britta, as you talk about this, it's sounding like the closest thing I've ever experienced is a psychedelic experience. And I think to myself, yes, that's probably the closest you've gotten prior to what you're going to go through, because there's an altered something.

Whapio: That is in the air, altered smell, right? Wave, yeah. Which is not metaphysical. It is a completely physiologic understanding. You put an EEG on someone's head, they read out a brain wave. And those different brain waves have different stages — a chatty stage in the beginning, and then a more sensitive state, and then all of a sudden a woman pulls away, and then all of a sudden she's at the top. And you can calibrate her journey by just watching how she goes up the mountain, how she unfolds the portals, how she does that. You can watch the brain waves without having a brain wave-watching cap on their head, you can see it. And if you know your brain waves — I mean, we know a lot about our hormones. We know very little about our brain waves in labor, okay, in birth. So I do teach that a lot. And as far as someone saying, oh, that's nonsense, or oh, that's metaphysical crap — that doesn't bother me. If you don't get it, you don't get it. It's okay with me. Totally, totally. I'm not like, oh, I better change something, or I need to please you, or something like that. You'll find out someday. You'll see someday. Or you won't.

Britta: Yeah, well and I — the reason I spoke to it is because I can just imagine the listener kind of having those moments, and I think it's powerful to crack open, even for those who may be like, oh, this is a little out there, to crack the door open to the possibility of understanding that the metaphysical, even — the metaphysical or the physiologic, the brain waves, the psycho-spiritual —

Whapio: Can all happen, and often does. It is happening whether you're there or not, whether you believe it or not, whether you consciously experience it or not. And here's the thing — women have brought that, not the caregivers. Women have said, I want the transformational birth. I want my altered state. I want to go as far as I can out there, and knowing that you are my witness, you are my anchor. You won't let anything happen to me when I go out through the vastness of time and space. Okay, or wherever we go. I kind of think of it as like having to go into altered time and space to retrieve our child, to receive and retrieve ourselves as a parent. It's quite a journey. It's a vast journey to traverse that landscape.

The Undisturbed Birth: Presence, Pain, and the Altered State

Britta: And there's — speaking of the brain waves and the spiritual journey — there's a lot that can happen that can interrupt this that we're talking about being able to touch. So what helps someone in birth step into that space where they can have this alternate consciousness, this deep consciousness? What helps them and what gets in their way?

Whapio: Here's one thing, alright. A lot of women share with me that they love their partner so much and they want their partner to be there, but they don't want their partner to interfere with them and talk with them. A woman said to me the other day — I just wanted to say but I couldn't hurt his feelings, because he was like, are you alright? Do you need this, you need that? She said, I just want him to be my witness, my anchor as well. You and Whapio are my anchors. I'm okay. I've got this. And what women are saying is, I've got this. Do you see that I've got this? And do you see that your ministrations, while totally well meant, are disturbing me and preventing me from getting into that altered state place where, incidentally, there's very little pain. Pain is not the issue. If a woman can get into those altered states and not be kept pulling out of them, you will see that the pain begins to recede, that it doesn't go away necessarily, but it's not the issue. It's not in the foreground. It's not an issue at all. This is what I tell people about pain. Just hang in there and create that altered space for you. And the more people who disturb you — the more people who, even though well meaning, are actually making it harder for a woman to maintain her kinship in there. So, leaving the laboring person, the laboring body, undisturbed, is key.

This is the biggest key. It's the answer to pain. It's the answer to a straightforward labor, alright. It's the answer to a prolonged labor there. Okay. It's also incredibly valuable in the sense that a mother has a safe but spiritual experience that she wanted. Alright.

Women talk about safety a lot, but they also — it's actually the partners who talk about safety. They're worried about the statistics and all — is this okay? Women aren't. Women know intrinsically, I'm going to have my baby and it's going to be what it is. Okay, it is going to have to be what it is, in the sense that you talked about how it's not predictable, and whatnot. Okay, women have to pretty much embrace that to be able to be comfortable with saying, I want my own birth. I don't want to be managed, I don't want to be touched, I don't want to be talked to right now. These are the things that make the difference. And I feel, and I'll say it because I feel like it's true, there's a lot of ego involved in birth. And there's a lot of ego with — I am your caregiver, I tell you what to do, I guide you. When in truth, the mom guides her caregiver. The mom says, this is what I need from you. When we come and we say, I want to serve birth — well, traditionally, servants are in the corner waiting to be called, okay? And that's kind of how I am. I don't really get into — you know, women know where I'm at, and they tell me what they need and what they want.

Britta: Rather than centering yourself. Sometimes I think about it archetypally, in part because of my background — my former teachers, my background with myth and archetypal psychology. I like to think archetypally. And I think the hero energy can come in and be held and embodied often by providers.

Whapio: Yeah, very much so, yeah. And it decenters the real center of the focus, the real hero — even though that doesn't feel like the right kind of archetype in that — but that archetype of mother, that archetype of the seeker going through great transformation. I would even say the archetype of the magician. Because I think when you are giving birth, there is a magical creating something from —

Britta: — wasn't there before. That feels magic.

Whapio: Like the magician is there. Yeah, okay, yeah. And women have this place in labor that we don't really — maybe some savvy nurses know about it — but it's called the quietude, and it happens when a woman is completely dilated and gets to the top of the mountain, if you will, and then is in the eye of the storm. And so she has a chance to rest up a little bit. Okay, but it's not about that. It's about — when you get to the top of something, you don't run right back down, you sit, you receive. This is a place where mothers receive information, probably a lot of them, for their babies, okay. Oh, I could tell you stories about women. Because I always ask women, so how was your quietude? Oh, Whapio, did you hear those eagles?

The Quietude: Receiving at the Top of the Mountain

Whapio: Or — Whapio. I once worked with a lovely, lovely Native American woman, and she and her partner practiced those ways. And so she said to me, Whapio, in my quietude, I got to the top, everything was quiet, and there was this big block of turquoise there. And in the block of turquoise, I could see my baby was there. And she said, but I didn't know how to get my baby. I didn't know what to do in this block of turquoise. And she said, I went, oh, and all of a sudden it opened up, and I took my baby and I said, darling, we're going home now.

These are the experiences that we're taking away from women. And that especially the quietude —

Britta: — is often a pause. It's another way that sometimes it's talked about, that some providers are really uncomfortable with, and want to see it as in some way needing to be changed, sped up, non-functional. That it's in some ways a dysfunction of labor to have a pause.

Whapio: Yes. It's like, oh, she's stalling out, right? Okay, rather than — no, no, no. That's why I think some savvy nurses just say, no, no, no, leave her alone, she's fine, she'll be alright. She's taking that. But this is where the Pitocin comes on.

Britta: Yeah. Oh, I've seen it many times, that spot. And I think it can be helpful for folks to know, because one of the other things that I've seen is that pause that can happen after fully dilated — not even at the end of dilating, you know, as we're nearing dilation, but dilation has ended, it's fully open, completely open. The cervix is complete. It is open. And no urge to push comes. And people are like, well, go ahead and push, you know. But if there isn't — and I don't know, my experience is also that consciously, there's often an awareness that's different in that spot, where there's been so much deep, deep, deep internal to get to fully, completely dilated, and then there's a —

Whapio: Eyes open, yeah.

Britta: Yeah.

Whapio: It's quite beautiful to see, yeah. Quite beautiful to just sit and see a labor unfold, which is very different than saying, go ahead, oh, let's get you pushing.

Sovereignty in Birth: Following the Internal Compass

Whapio: I think pushing — coached pushing — should be absolutely forbidden. I think it railroads a mom. I do. It's taking her away from her center. It's taking away from one of the biggest things that transformation happens for her. And what it is is this: the transformation is when a mom does her birth her way. She has followed her own internal compass instead of the external compass that is put on her. This is the transformation — I will give birth, not you. I will have a rite of passage, not you. A rite of passage is something you do alone. This is how you learn. And I see women learning how to make an act of will. I mean, I could go on and on about this, but my point is, this is the transformation: a woman shifting from needing others to tell her what to do, to her own setting her own intrinsic compass to say, I know exactly what to do.

Britta: I imagine — and have witnessed — that can include asking for medical support and help.

Whapio: But doing it with sovereignty, sure? Yeah, she may decide that she's had enough of this, and where's my ride, I want to go in. You know? Yeah, completely her decision.

Britta: Because that — yeah, that doesn't mean her transformation has been denied.

Whapio: Oh, not at all. In fact, it probably been enhanced, right? Because seeing two things that she has options to do.

Britta: Oh, I love how you said that, yes, right. Because sometimes, in a number of births that I've witnessed, the act of asking for help was actually the rite of passage, the pivotal moment of the rite of passage, where they were like, I realized I needed help and support. I decided. I decided. And that changed things. And I'm glad we're talking about this, because there's no right way to give birth. Let's talk about that, because you talk about how it doesn't necessarily look a particular way, and that transformative labor can be wild, can be quiet, can be loud, can be painful, can be cosmic, all of the above, right?

Whapio: Yeah, so once — at once, I mean, I agree. And that goes back to the thing you were talking about, about multitudes.

Britta: I think there's a way in which maybe — and now I'm just thinking this through — but maybe we're getting closer to being able to have these conversations, because we're starting to break out of some of the binaries and into an understanding of multitudes, because birth is multitudes. Yeah, so what is the role then in here for caregivers, for partners, for fathers, in witnessing labor that presents itself in so many multitudes.

The Caregiver as Servant: Presence Over Intervention

Whapio: You know, I think here's something that's kind of ironic: women love to have a birthing companion. They do — when they're pregnant, they love to have somebody take that journey with them, and be transparent about information and whatnot. And they really love that person in the postpartum too, because that's the piece where we integrate everything, and you know, celebrate, elevate, integrate in the postpartum. But in the birth, women don't need you. They don't need you very much. And that's so ironic, because we focus everything around the birth. And when we do that, we assure that a woman is going to be disturbed. Okay, when we're all about the birth and this and that and the other thing, when actually, I think women have it. They know it. And they feel like, why wouldn't I know this? You know? Why are you treating me like I know nothing?

It's funny, women want you in the prenatal period, they want you in the postpartum, but in the birth itself, they don't want you to get involved. This is what they taught me — don't get involved. Sit over there. She will call you if she needs you. You are her anchor. And you know, a lot of times the free birth moms will tell me, it was so empowering. It really was. It's amazing birth. But you know what? I wish I had had the presence of a wise woman in the room.

Not the presence — and that word is very intentional. Yes, alright, they don't want you to tell them what to do. It's not that. It's not about them finding your way for you. It's about being witnessed by someone you respect and love, and have them witness you. A wise woman in the room. That's very telling, isn't it?

Britta: Yeah. I love that. I know that's what they needed. So this is a beautiful example of one of those kind of profound realizations and awarenesses that can come. And birth and labor and postpartum really offer a lot of opportunities for profound realizations, new truths, peak experiences. What becomes possible when we protect the altered state of labor, the altered state of the brain for the one giving birth, the altered state of the psyche of the one giving birth? What becomes possible when we protect that?

Doulas, Advocacy, and Protecting the Altered State

Whapio: Well, the veils get thin when a woman is moved out of that distraction, alright, goes into those deeper, slower brain waves. These are the brain waves of knowing. They're not thinking, they're not even feeling, they're just knowing. They're very low, sleep, you know. And when you see this come on a woman, well, you know that it would be sacrilege to come into her space and touch her or talk to her. You just know that. And of course, we don't have a realization of that — we flip on the lights and say, we're going to get a baby out today. Alright? And everything crashes. Everything crashes.

So I feel like what doulas do is guide and guard, along with the dad, the altered space for the mom. And if dads understood the legality and the law — okay — that they hold the charge. If the dad says, she doesn't want that, let's not do that to her. His word is law. See, people think the doctor's in charge, people think the hospital's in charge, people think the midwife's in charge. Actually, it's the dad who holds the charge, because that's who's taking these two people home.

Britta: Yeah, yeah. Or the person giving birth, if there's not a partner there. But in the couple, often the one who can access their voice is the partner. And that can be hard for some people to hear sometimes, because they're like, no, no, I'm a modern woman, and I'm going to ask for what I want and do what I want. But sometimes that outward asking and doing and demanding actually can get in the way of that altered state as well.

Whapio: Yes, that's true. And birth is not a fight, right? Okay, a woman doesn't want to fight. That's why she gives in.

Britta: Exactly. You know, so that's one of the things that can be so powerful about having a partner who feels connected to their voice — and why it can be so helpful for them to be able to say, I'm actually protecting this, and I know what it is that my beloved has asked of me, and I'm communicating this because she might not be able to right now, and I'm protecting her need to —

Whapio: Yes. And I think that all doulas and caregivers, even, should be advocates. They should take a course in advocacy and be a woman's advocate, rather than a woman's guide or compass. You know, holding the compass over here — that would be so beautiful. Yeah. Well, medical advocates are a thing. I had to be a medical advocate for my mom. You know, it's — yeah, there's — the medical community understands the term medical advocate, except for some reason in birth.

Britta: Right. Where it's like, oh, that's a doula, you just do comfort. It's like, well, maybe let's do some more than that.

Whapio: Yeah, of course. This is what women really could use — an advocate rather than a comfort measure doula, because the comfort measure stuff gets in the way, especially when you're trying to be in an altered state. Alright, and actually, the more a person brings you back to that ordinary reality, the more pain is created, because that's where the pain is. Hard to tell people these things, but, you know. But advocacy — that's why at the Matrona, we certify you as a family advocate as well as a doula, alright? And what we see at the Matrona is that doulas work for dads, because the dad holds the charge, not the doula, and not the doctor even, and not the nurse. And doulas can be so helpful to partners, because doulas are familiar with what's happening in a medical setting, and are adapted and — know the felt sense there — and can see what's going on for the dad or the partner and support them.

Britta: I love that. I often am speaking to — when especially I hear someone say, oh, well, I'm going to interview a bunch of doulas and then I'll introduce them to my partner. I'm like, your partner needs to be there. Get them in earlier, because their relationship is actually going to be really critical.

A Manifesto for Partners

Whapio: Yeah. Well, I have a manifesto for men, or partners. Okay, tell us. I'm going to do it quick. Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken. Be yourself, show up as who you are, and there you go. Number two, know that you have instinctual responses to this birth. You know her more than anybody on earth. You are her perfect, intimate advocate. Okay, act on that. If you have an instinctual response to something, act on it. You're free to act on it. You don't have to be quiet, you don't have to be afraid. Oh, I can't say that. Act on it. You can.

Next one is, know that you are the legal, lawful, familial, social person in charge — who holds the charge for this birth. Act on it. Speak up. Okay.

Be your partner's personal, intimate advocate. Alright. You are the perfect intimate advocate. Who better to advocate for her? Besides, if she's sitting in the bed or doing something, and she's not happy about that, and you're sitting there watching that, and you know she's not happy, and you don't stick up for her, and you don't say something, there's going to be a problem. You're going to hear about it later. If you do stick up for her, alright, and say, no, she doesn't want that. What happens there is — that's really hot. You know what I mean? My man is sticking up for me. That is hot. Alright, what can I say, it is hot.

Partners, get on the page. Alright, legally and lawfully, you have a right to do that. Socially, religiously, familiarly — the father's the head of the household. The father will take the baby and the mom home. See, dads don't know this. They think that they're wallpaper and that, you know, they don't know what to do. But they have a lot. There's so much.

Sound in Labor and Physiologic vs. Managed Birth

Britta: Sometimes I will say that if a woman is making sounds in labor, it can be uncomfortable for other people in the room to hear these sounds, and they'll come in — oh, it's really loud, or it's, you know — and one of the things is, if a partner comes in and just kind of makes a little bit of sound with her, just tones with her, not above her, not over her, but with her. Nobody's going to tell a partner to be quiet. You're right. It's just socially not — it's not something that tends to happen. And if a couple is making sound together, and a care provider walks in, they feel like they're interrupting something intimate, and they turn around and leave. It's like a quick turnaround. It's like, oh, I'm not supposed to be here, which is a way of protecting the space, or can be a way.

Whapio: You know, an L&D nurse told me one time, she said, you know, we don't respect people who are submissive. We like people to tell us what they want. And I said, that's really good. Is that happening now in hospitals? No, it's — it's on the edge of it. And they'd have to ask for it. They'd have to ask for something different. Otherwise they'll be managed. But we're getting more and more families now who want what we call a physiologic birth rather than a managed birth. So this has become very important — for a mom: what do you want? Do you want a physiologic birth or a managed birth? Oh, I want someone to manage me the whole way, you know, I do. Or no, I don't want to be told to do. I don't want a vaginal exam unless I ask for it. I don't want to push without my feeling it. So it's coming around a little bit. But you know, this happens at home as well as in the hospital too, where women don't really get what they want.

Britta: Yeah, no, it isn't. It isn't determined entirely by location, and that's an important thing for folks to know, is that it can be provider, it can be who's helping guard your birth space, it can — there's a lot of factors, absolutely. So Whapio, we have to start wrapping up here, even though I could listen to you and talk with you for hours. Where can people find out more about the Matrona, your programs, your teachings? Where do you want to point people toward for resources from here?

Resources and Upcoming Programs

Whapio: Well, you can come to our website, or you can come to our Instagram, and we are thematrona.com. And well, what we have coming up right now is our seventh cohort — if you want to spend a year with birth, I mean, if you're really interested in birth, do your due diligence. Know everything and use it wisely. That's our motto, or something, okay. And we offer a year-long devotional to birth, and you will learn so much. It's like a whole big holistic library. Alright, you get the deal. We never take it away from you, alright? You should go on our website, listen to what people say, go on our Instagram. Alright, and we're ready for you now. We're going to start on the spring equinox, okay, a year-long devotional to birth.

Then we have doula classes in May, and we have other things that are going on. So our website usually has the skinny on that — all the updates on that.

Britta: So as we bring the conversation to a close, I like to end with one question, and that's: what's one thing that you feel passionately about, that you want new or expectant parents to see, hear, feel or know during this profound period of their lives?

Closing Reflections: Know Your Options, Make Your Own Decisions

Whapio: I think that knowing as much as you can about birth, finding someone who is your anchor, alright, and then making your own decisions about how you want to orchestrate your birth, rather than have decisions made for you. I would like to see women and families knowing that they have the right to make their own decisions and do it. And what's forward thinking about all of this is they take the responsibility for their births. Alright, nobody tells them what to do. But if you decide that, you take the responsibility for your birth, and that's forward thinking and moving. Families making their own decisions and accepting the dictum to go ahead and make your own decisions. We don't do it for you at the Matrona. Make your own decisions. Yeah, and here are the options.

Britta: Know your options and make your own decisions, absolutely. Thank you so much, Whapio. It's really wonderful to be with you. And thank you, listeners, for sharing this time with us. If something shared today impacted, supported or moved you, please share this episode with a friend. I produce this podcast myself, and your support makes it possible. To show a little love for the podcast and these conversations, please follow, rate and review. If you'd like to continue the conversation, please join us on Instagram at Transformed by Birth. I look forward to being with you on the next episode of Transformed by Birth. And now let's gather what we want to take away from this episode, with an inhale, and with an exhale, I'll blow out our candle.

Until next time, bye, friends.